Question about commercial speed boats

Discussion in 'Powerboats' started by Vulkyn, Aug 13, 2010.

  1. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    Actually,
    You don't have to reinvent boat building, use your advantages to provide yourself a niche.

    Your advantage,
    Low labor
    Proximity to middle east

    Your disadvantage,
    Lower technology
    Cost of getting some materials

    Who is your market?
    Where can you take the advantage of the above. I already know, you will have to wait ... got to go to dinner..later
     
  2. Vulkyn
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    Vulkyn Senior Member

  3. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    Many US powerboats have been built out of vinylester for over 30 years.
    Some larger ones have used Vinylester below the water line and other cheap **** above.
    Vinyesters have been around for over 40 years its pretty much the measure of the quality in US built boats if you want to compare them.
    Many of the low volume go fast boats are Epoxy
    Many builder swill give you a 10year warranty from osmosis when they use Vinylester (and probably hand layed as well)
    Many yacht (sail) builders will use one layer of vinylester and then lay the rest up with poly.
    Poly is the cheapest you can use and so are all its properties.
     
  4. Vulkyn
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    Vulkyn Senior Member

    Ok seems the resin family is big, i was not aware that vinyester can be used like polyster.

    So quality wise its Polyester, vinyester then epoxy ?
    Also would there be any major advantages to mix and match? Like use one layer of vinyester on poly to decrease osmosis and hull blistering problem?
     
  5. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    Yes
    Yes
    and yes if you want to save money but you need to be sure the guys on the floor dont pickup the wrong tin on a Monday morning after a big weekend.

    ( no poly on site....never a mix up)
     
  6. Vulkyn
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    Vulkyn Senior Member

    Ill do some calculation but if the quality is worth it might as well switch all to Vinylester instead of poly and avoid any mix ups !!
     
  7. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    I think plenty of factories have made that decision in the past
    I heard one story from a high tech factory in a land of unskilled workers that one of them loaded orange paint into the pressure pot uncataylised and the guy in the suit in the spray booth just went for it,as you would....
     
  8. Vulkyn
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    Vulkyn Senior Member

    What worries me is the lake of tools to detect a problem ....

    In my business to avoid problems like that i did batch sampling so i can have the whole history of the job. Not to mention it was a great way of assuring clients of consistency in case any problems may arise.

    Should i weight the boat after completion? Is it possible to use an ultra sound device to randomly check for any defects?
    We have a great arabic saying that goes something along those lines

    "Prevention is better than medication" So solve the problem from the root before it escalates.

    So the goal is always to prevent but i might not be able to physically monitor everything so at least make some checks before receiving the boat.
     
  9. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    There is nothing wrong with using polyester if it is used in combitation with a good well planed lay up and done by people that know what they are doing .
    If you want to improve the situation then use a slightly better lay up and change to Vinylester resin . If you want to speed up the process then get a spray gun / chopper gun !!!
    I can hear the gasps from a few people when you mention the word chopper gun . It is only as good as the person hanging on to the handle ,pulling the trigger . If he does not completely understand what its all about then you will not get the full advantage of what the gun can do for you, Polyester or vinylester makes no differance the gun will handle both.
    A good team of 3 people (that includes the gun operator) can lay a lot of glass, wet it out, and roll it in a very short time!!! With a 4th person there is always someone standing round and getting in the way .

    Its possible to make a 16 foot and a 18 foot 6 cabin boat in one day with a 4 person team all working together in a production basis !.Thats hull and all the interior framing , floors etc plus the deck interior sanded and flow coated ready to be fitted to the hull .
    Bonito boats had a very good reputation here in nz as being the best made and put together power boat in this country . Even to this day second hand boats they still fetch top dollar over any other brand produced during there era !!. The company refused to speed up manufacture at the possible sacriffice of quality ! We had a 2 year waiting list for the 16 footer and 12 months for the 18.6 footer .
    If you want quality then teach your staff to think quality !! make them always look for better ways of doing the job , not quicker but better ways !!!.

    :p

    There is no need to even think about epoxy for any part of the construction .
     
  10. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Here we are again.............drivel and a "deep insight" into the industry given by a complete novice.

    The chopper gun has had it´s time long ago. And the layups are too heavy and costly to be done that way today.

    In fact, a high quality bagged or even infusion layup is CHEAPER than a chopped layup. That becomes even more valid when wages are low.

    Epoxy is the first choice when you do high quality layups, and almost a must when you have to compete as a newcomer, on a tough market with well known brands.
    And it is by far the easiest to process of all resins. A very important point when working in developing countries.

    VE can be a bit cost saving but that is not as dramatic as a layman would believe.

    Poly is almost completely out of the race, when you try to set up a new business today.

    I will let you have the according info by PM Vulkyn!

    Sorry to all the other observers here. But I don´t like to improve Tunnels "knowledge" on a topic he falsely believes to understand already.


    Regards
    Richard
     
  11. tinhorn
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    tinhorn Senior Member

    GASP! GASP! GASP!

    Well, I have to admit that using a wetout gun CAN speed things up considerably. It's probably essential to an efficient production shop making large parts. But recognize the temptation to use too much resin on the glass--it's easier to roll out resin-rich 'glass, and a crew that is being pressed for speed is going to use a little extra resin in order to speed up their work in order to please the taskmaster.

    Weighing the finished parts will provide a check against this. More attention to a quality layup instead of the ticking clock will also help.

    I've run many miles of strand through a chopper gun, and I was NEVER able to adjust the gun to the point where I felt my parts were not resin-rich. (They were just industrial parts designed to be buried in the ground, so it was no big deal to my employer. Emphasis was mold turnaround.) If you're going to invest in guns--GASP! GASP! GASP!--use them for applying resin, not for chopping.

    Yup--your focus will become their focus. If you're not increasing your costs by using exotic materials or processes unneccesarily, there's no need to drive a low-paid crew crazy over clock-watching. But you probably already knew that.
     
  12. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    I thought that would get reaction or two !! Gasp gasp !
    Yeah i to worked hanging onto the end of a gun for some time as well and there are some tricks to getting the resin in the right place as well as the glass and wet and dry places i never had a problem with . Each and every item had a work sheet and told a story , the amount of glass being used be it chop strand or fabric , there was a weight of resin to wet out that particular fabric and when the item was finished it went on the scales and there was a target weight on the work sheet with a discrepancy of + or -.25 % on ALL PARTS reguardless of size or shape .I doesnt take long to learn the system and get really good at it . The tricks was to use red dye in the catalyst to have a nice color in the resin so you can see where the resin was and how much buy the color and then have a person with a wide medium haired mohair roller coming along behind you and giving the surface a quick roll down so the glass is on the surface and begining its wet out and makes it really quick to roll the air out .
    Had scales under the resin drum and scales on the catalyst container and of cause the fabric had been weigh had its resin content written on a tag so you always knew what was where and how much .
    Plus we had a quality controll person standing and checking temprature , humidity, taking small samples of resin randomly through out the process.
    We were building to a very strict survey standard everything reguardless of size be it a panel 16 metres long X 4 metres wide with 4 layers of glass each side and a 50mm core .Or a small window frame that only had a couple of metres of surface area . Everything had a weight to work towards and to be checked at the end . Sounds complicated but in a very short time you could get really damn good at it and most times never had to look at the scales during the spray up as you know instinctively you had it right or not. The scales on the catalyst was to constantly be able to check the catalyst ratio coming out of the gun as well as the final weight of the product . The venus gun was amazingly accurate and when checked over a week against records was within very close limits always and never changed all the time i was there.
    Had one boss that said it wasnt possible to make there gun spray less resin and everything was soaking wet all the time !! so with just changed the nozzel and lowered the pump pressure a little and it was so dry the glass fell off the job onto the floor .Simply the operator had no idea what he was doing and how everything worked on the gun he was using even though he had been there for a long time .
    Dont blame the equipment ! its a mind set that most every one grows up with , understaning and knowing what and how things work properly is the key to all things ,also understanding all about glass and how resin wets and what makes it easy to work with .:p :D ;)
     
  13. Vulkyn
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    Vulkyn Senior Member

    So if i am hand laying a 6 meter speed boat (previously with fiberglass/poly) what would switching to epoxy achieve? Both from final product stand point and for production process in itself?

    I also had a talk with the yard, they use wood in stingers (beams from forward to aft) to enhance strength. Should i continue on their practice or should i ask them to change to wood-less stingers ?
     
  14. tinhorn
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    tinhorn Senior Member

    Any garbage you stick between the layers of 'glass are simply there to hold the 'glass in shape while the resin cures. I've never seen encapsulated wood that wasn't rotten and useless.

    I don't have the solution, but there certainly must be a way to create a composite beam if you can't utilize prefab extruded fiberglass tube.
     

  15. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Mu personal veiw is wood in the bottom of a baot should not be used any where . With the exception of Balsa as a core . Stringers use polyurethane foam cut to shape and glassed over . Foam is to hold the shape only so the glass does all the work . shape and size can be changed to give what ever sort of strength you need in any particular place. :idea:
    Beam construction is not advisable in the bottom of a hull where thats pounding and has lot of loads impossed , under decks and superstructure ok . will support a lot of weight but not weight that moves !!!:?:
    Same with the transom in a power boat if you give it shape and have no wood at all then it never becomes a problem for the life of the boat .
    Good thing to remember is shape = strenght !!! Introduce shape into a Flat panel , the weight remains the same but the strenght goes up increadably .
    So with that thought in mind why do we have to have flat transoms ??, why cant they have shape and possibly be even stronger than ones filled with half a forest that loves water and goes rotten ??:(
    Grid frames and tophat sections made of only glass under floors are a excellent way of building a hull , never gets waterlogged , never goes rottern so a hull even after 25 years is just as strong and close to the same weight as when it was first made !!.
    Have we learned anything over the years ?? :confused: why are manufactures still doing the same things to this very day knowing full well it will become a problem a short while down the track . :mad:
     
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