# Pure Hydrogen Fuel Supplementation

Discussion in 'Hybrid' started by Secure Supplies, Sep 6, 2014.

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Location: Milwaukee, WI

### gonzoSenior Member

You could melt tar with Secure Supplies hydrogen running a bunsen burner

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### Secure SuppliesJunior Member

Did you know you can use hydroxy under water

So kinda handy to have on a boat

At least you salty's have a balls to question correctly give 10 points for that LOL

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### AndySGraySenior Member

Shall I do the Maths for you - It would be a shame if the end result was plenty, oodles or heaps because you forgot to carry the decimal place

So 0.348 Kg in 2h20min

that is 348 grammes divided by the molecular weight of Hydrogen (2) giving 174 moles of H2

molar volume at 25C and 1atm is 24.465 Litre which gives 4,256 Litres (so Stacks or Lots)

So per minute (divide by 2h20 =140min) gives 30.4 Litres per Minute

There, that wasn't too difficult was it

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### AndySGraySenior Member

Oh, wait, that was a cylinder not the PEM cell?

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### AndySGraySenior Member

How many cells would be needed to generate that 30L/min ?

Carmo, M; Fritz D; Mergel J; Stolten D (2013). "A comprehensive review on PEM water electrolysis". International Journal of Hydrogen Energy.

Quote "state of the art systems" as being able to generate a normalised cubic meter of H2 for between 4.2 an 7.5kWh of energy...

(This was great as I was going to have to work it out using coulombs... Because I can!)

Giving you the benefit of the doubt and using the least power
I'm using L not m3 so divide by 1000
= 4.2 Watt hours per liter

Convert to minutes 252 Watt minutes per Liter

Now we need 30L/min - i.e. 7,560 Watts (7.56 kW or (x1.34) 10.13 Horsepower).

So state of the art PEM cells require 7.56 kW on a 25kW setup

What was that you said earlier "LOL" ?
HWLLLL (He Who Laughs Last Laughs Loudest)

Oh wait - your cells are 24v x 4A or 96 watts....

So that would be 79 cells then ?

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### AndySGraySenior Member

Fantastic, I'll bring the feathers then

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### AndySGraySenior Member

:idea: I also suspect it might take a tad (thats 2.5 oodles or plenty squared) more than his half to one gallon a day.
(on a boat and using non numeric quantities, maybe thats a Galleon) :?:

30L /min
- divided by 24.465 (molar volume at 25C) = 1.226 moles per minute H2

1 moles H2 plus 0.5 moles o2 gives 1 moles water

hence 1.226 moles per minute H2O

73.57 moles an hour
1,765 moles a day
- times by molecular weight of water (18 grammes)
31.784 Kg of water
equivalent to 8.4 US Gallon
• 31.7 Litres (obviously)
• 6.99 Imperial Gallons
• or "shed-loads" if you wish to avoid giving specific numbers

Last edited: Sep 9, 2014
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### AndySGraySenior Member

I also noticed his Diesel motor had spark plugs in the vid - Then my Flash player crashed with windows error 103342 - Buffer full, please remove and Re-Install "BS-Filter.dll"

Last edited: Sep 9, 2014
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### AndySGraySenior Member

Oh cool, we're playing Hydrogen trivial pursuit, my turn;-

Did you know that Russian technical divers use Hydrogen blends similar to the Helium based Tri-mix and Heliox used in the West. The fun part is that the blending is done at depth >10 meters because these mixtures are explosive lower ambient pressure

There was a pilot study in the USA where town gas supply was switched to Hydrogen (Produced by geothermal pyrolysis (heat) of waste).

For cooking it had some basic problems;-
The flame is almost colourless
- people left it on and suffered burns
- had no smell - if not lit don't know (easily sorted with same sulphur 'scent' added to natural gas)
- incredibly hot - burned the base out of aluminium sauce pans in seconds if you left it on the heat.

That last one might worry some who are putting into an engine with aluminium parts and pistons

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### Secure SuppliesJunior Member

nice post like it thanks, I am friends with TR Knudson still living

partner of Yull brown of brownes gas, he has been telling me to make the diving thing
I have a design here for that.
=====================

For the cooking thing that was solved long ago ,

Simply do following

use mig tip, angle flames so you use side of flame not tip, hydrogen does not radiate heat, but it will be super efficient if a catalyst is in front

so you just wrap hat in stainless mesh wool ( scrubber well) it diffuses the flames
and is fantastic stove than as can run from solar and water.

can answer more on this if wan as played with this alot.

We can control the burn rate with simple air recycle cycle techniques

so we co equal any fuel type, same like a egr works but more simple

Dan

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### Secure SuppliesJunior Member

Just notes on the calculations

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### Secure SuppliesJunior Member

Estimating Water Use - Per LPM of HHO
*I have been asked, many times, how much water the Cells use per hour. I think, now, I can shed some light on the subject. It is not an easy answer, but I think I have enough information to get you in the ball park.We are told that, 1 Liter of water can make 1860 Liters of HHO gas. That is, 1000 Milliliters of water can make 1860 Liters of HHO, or 1,860,000 Milliliters. Thus, 1 Milliliter of water can make 1.86 Liters of HHO, or 1860 Milliliters.
LPM x 1000 / 1860 = Milliliters Per Minute of Water** x 60 = Milliliters Per Hour

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### Secure SuppliesJunior Member

What percentage of hydrogen and oxygen are in water? You have to be more specific about what % value you want
You can consider a volume %:
Water consista of 2 volumes hydrogen and 1 volume oxygen
That is:
Hydrogen - 66.67% by volume
Oxygen - 33.33% by volume

Alternatively you can think of the % as a mass %:
Molar mass of water = 18g/mol
1mol of water will consist of 2g of hydrogen and 16g of oxygen
Mass % hydrogen = 2/18*100 = 11.11%
Mass % oxygen = 16/18*100 = 88.89%

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### AndySGraySenior Member

Erm, No, Not really...

Technically, a boat who's diesel is underwater is known as a wreck dive

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### keroseneSenior Member

Here you go:

all scams.
I could write an essay here but I would have to re-write it every week (gets asked a lot). They all prey on the fact that people don't have too god of a grasp oh physics.

roughly 2 alternate and sometimes overlapping claims

1. hydrogen improves combustion - they point out that internal combustion engine only burns 30% of the fuel and hydrogen helps heat up the burning and makes it more complete. Claim is totally false - modern engines burn almost every molecule of the fuel. They are only 25-30% efficient but it is NOT because of unburned fuel. The car's engine burns all fuel - the low efficiency is result of friction, mechanical losses, heat etc.

2. With waste current from your alternator you can create enough hydrogen to produce substantial amount of fuel for the car to burn. This is bogus on two levels. a) there is no "waste" energy from the alternator. Car's alternator creates electricity "on demand" ie. it will resist the motor more the more you have electric demand. Ever given a jump to another car with flat battery? Your car is running and you hook the cables to the car with flat batt. the idle often drops as the running car starts charging the flat battery The load on the alternator went up and the motor works harder.
Now this electricity is supposed to split water to oxygen and hydrogen and then burn in the engine to be joined back into water. That is the claim and it can be done - however it will take multitude of more energy to split the hydrogen than you can ever recover from the joining (let alone with crappy combustion engine).

That sort of sums it up.

There are many obvious flaws in the systems:
- really small currents are supposedly creating enough hydrogen to run the engine - not gonna happen unless there are higher forces and perpetual motion at play.
- the gas doesn't need any kind of advanced metering - you just pipe it into your intake. If the amount of gas actually amounted to something substantial it could totally mess your fuel/oxygen ratios and cause serious engine damage. Also the explosion risk would be rather huge as they have hydrogen and oxygen traveling in same pipe.
- none can really explain how this system really works - ie. what is the reason why it breaks the most fundamental physics laws of thermodynamics.

Add to that that these systems have been around since 80s, many high profile promoters have been sued for fraud, no real manufacturer has ever adopted any of them, you can build it in your garage from stainless steel...

Sure you can make a bubbler but it will not amount to anything.

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