Protecting and Repairing a 56 year old Hartley Cruiser

Hi there, I hope I'm in the right place (If not please direct me to the right area)

I'm the owner of a 27ft Hartley Tide Song (Deep V) Built on a farm in the UK in 1967. She's a wonderful vessel and I do want to save her and make her last. I've done tons of work already but I'm unsure of how to protect her hull, she's 56 years old and has multiple areas of damage to her hull there's a long list of the issues bare in mind she's never been in the water in her life so the hull is in fantastic condition but the issues I shall list below and I'm unsure of what to coat and repair the hull with. Do I Fibreglass with west system or do I just epoxy coat it? I do know how to do the repairs needed and I do have marine plywood which is very high quality but I'm unsure of protecting it in the long run as id like to ideally last another 50 odd years lol. All the issues I think where there's a hole or damage to over plate with 6mm marine ply which and over plate on the inside for extra strength (think of it as the alternative for ply boats in comparing copper plating on planked vessels). Any suggestions and advice is welcome, cheers.

List of issues:

1.) One rather large square hull on portside due to old yard trailer being built incorrectly creating uneven pressure on the hull and the vessel eventually giving way, has been cleaned and ready to be refilled and plated. (portside of vessel on the lower part of the hull)

2.) 3 x Through hulls on the lower part of the hull which I dont want to use anymore. ( 2 on portside, 1 on starboard)

3.) 1 crack on the starboard stern area (The boat originally had an interior which had these 50mm thick doors to them and I may of dropped one of them) Its only cracked the plywood very little but need to be fixed.

4.) I've got to add back two of the lower hull frames which was originally notched out for two engines but I'm reinstalling the beams for structural use as well as installing a single engine in a different way so there will be about 20 holes but they could be epoxy filled as they would be sealed then.

5.) Stringer frame repairs to the portside bow area where the beams have rotten out (I believe this will be above the hull but there will be nail heads and screws showing but they could be filled with epoxy again).

6.) A small gash in the starboard stern side of the lower hull, I dont know how it got there but its there.

7.) And the last (I think) the biggest job of them all. Replacing the 12mm plywood transom, heres my reason for replacement, there were already two stern drives installed. I removed both and sold them and I'm adding back a stern drive with engine but only one stern drive therefore I have two holes and have to create a third on top which is removing structure and adding another hole. and I do have well used to be active woodworm in one of the panels on the portside. I believe I killed them but I wont know until summer which is when id like to get this vessel on the water.


Thats the list of the issues, if you have suggestions anything in any way shape or form is very much welcome and yes if you think this is a by gone vessel and is past saving well think again I do love this vessel and I very much want to save her and I will get her floating and liveable again.

Cheers, Knot Shore.

 

Pictures would help.
“Rot in stringers “ sounds ominous for a wooden boat over 40 years old. That is considered beyond the normal useful life span of wooden boats.
You might also want to investigate the insurability of the boat before you dive in.

 

Ah well the rot isnt huge damage really as its been contained in one area, long story of how it happened but i do know how and why it happened, its also larch stringers so they rot easily and this area was affected badly due to a poor design that wasnt addressed in the building works. But the vessels hull and deck are in extremely good shape still and there is actually zero rot in the hull, slight bit of rot due to unpainted deck but thats on my to do list. Heres a load of photos showing the rotten stringers, general hull of the vessel and the hole in the hull (the big one). I am determined to get this vessel floating. All the repair to frames or plywood i will be using west system epoxy, i have replacement stringers already from siberian larch and i do have some wood working and joinery skills, maybe not tally ho level but still good enough.

 

Contributor @Rumars will be one of the best to offer advice.

Sometimes on the forum, when you post too much; people get overwhelmed.

Let's start with the overall general question about glass/epoxy West System. There is a wood boat company that works in my marina. They told me the worst thing you can do to an old wood boat is glass the bottom. Why? Well, the bottom becomes uniform if so. Then when water enters the bilge it swells everything and there is no relief at all and fastenings pop. So, this overarching idea to glass the bottom needs to be the first thing to work through. I say no. If you removed the entire bottom and epoxy saturated it and reinstalled it; the larch stringers are still going to get water under and never dry out.

So, this is my main opinion. Don't consider glass. Not to mention, glassing upside down is a considerably difficult job.

Next. You are going to hate the single stern drive. Consider a bow thruster. Since this is not the main issue, I'll limit remarks.

Let's just discuss fixing the big hole. What is the current hull plated with? Typically, wood hulls with a double planking are cut back in two steps. I only see one cut and cannot tell what she's planked with.

If the planking is solid and a single layer; you would need to template and sister the floors and stringers. Then you can bed plywood layers back in place. The guys who work woodies in my marina seal all these connections with 5200 or similar. I hate 5200. They use jacks from underneath and use bronze fasteners to screw the planks in place while the caulk sets. Then they caulk the seams with 5200.

For small areas of rot; remove ALL the rot. None and I mean none can remain. You mix up epoxy putty and can repair small rot with it. The putty is cabosil and about 2.2 to one cab to epoxy, vary a bit based on slump. But you want it to not sag. I always precoat all wood with mixed resin before I add the fillers. To tacky or about an hour before is best. Otherwise, old wood will drysuck the resins from the margin and leave a void for ingress.

You can butt block inside for thru hull repairs, but let's discuss more after you tell us how she is planked.

Get back to us and focus on the two questions about using any glass and fixing the big hole. Then we can discuss smaller items.

 

PS... don't worry about the rot, the repair guys leave rotten stringers in place, but the sisters are all epoxy sealed after templating and verifying fit so the rot can't migrate to framing...fix any rot easily accessible with either new floors/stringers or epoxy repair of small spots say like 2" square and under...epoxy will not tolerate loading more than 3/8" thick, so do fills in steps to avoid fire or cracking the mix

 

Well to start with youd be quite suprised this is actually not planked, its double layer 6mm mohogany faced marine plywood. Its got absolutely no rot in the hull what so ever its immaculate condition thanks to the lead and zinc primer/topcoat it has. Ive also primed and bilge painted the hull on the inside to help protect it.

But that paint has long seen better days and is starting to flake. For the rotten stringers i have the necessary items needed to perform the repairs. The correct size nails, sibearn larch i milled down to match, brass screws and epoxy mainly for bonding as it was done in layers in some areas.

Right the big hole, so the trailer was built incorrectly which put pressure on the area and eventually peirced the hull. They repaired it once with a larger 12mm inner plate and screws and then two 6mm layers scarfed in but the trailer broke that again.

Now im using the exact same materials but in a different way i was going to place a 6mm inner plate with epoxy and then scarf two 6mm layers in and then one larger 6mm layer on the outside to make it stronger and prevent it being pushed back in. I have far eastern grade marine plywood from the government nor i am joking about that so its damn good quality. I was thinking in the way of fixing the hole to widen out the second layer so it sits into the orginal ply instead of being the same size as the first layer. All the timber around the hole is still in very good condition and has no signs of rotting or damage. The only issue is the lack of area to work with which is why i think overplating may help because this damage is right next to the chine.

Id have to say no to a bow thruster as this vessel is only going on the canals and some rivers and thats really it. I cannot spend masses which is why i only have a single outdrive but i have an engine and other bits with it as well.

I hope this helps. Cheers.

 

Just to add, im not the greatest with epoxy nor i do have the biggest knowledge of it. I do struggle as well with measurements and accuracies and other bits so its rarely onpoint. But i really do enjoy the work im doing on this vessel and i would like to see it completed that is for sure.

 

The needed repairs are not rocket science, but you do need to use the proper techniques. This means proper scarfing and epoxy use.

Epoxy mixing needs proper measuring or it won't work at all. If you can't do that buy premix cartridges like West Six 10, all you have to do there is squeeze it from a manual caulking gun. It's more expensive then self mixing but it's either that or learn to properly measure and mix.

Scarfing, you need to learn how to do it in place. The stringers need a ramp greater then 6:1. You need to place the scarf well away from the rot, cut at least 15" back from where you think the rot stops. The plywood surface beneath needs to be clean and free of rot, you will have to replace at least the inner layer of the skin.
Since your boat is planked with two layers of 6mm ply you use staggered scarfing. Remove one layer (router it out) on a larger area and glue in new strips. The overlap should be around 4". Best thing is to also scarf the ends, but you can also use simple butting. If you but them stagger the butts so they are not in a straight line. Small holes like troughhulls can also be plugged with a scarfed in round plug, sand the ramp into the hullside from the outside, match the ramp on the plug.

For your hole where the trailer support goes, your plan is bad. Increasing thickness by 12mm isn't going to do the trick this time just because you put some of the ply on the outside. What you need to do is reduce panel span in that area and distribute the load over more frames. For that you add at least one stringer there, spanning 4 frames. You should also to tie the frame and skin, after you glue in the stringer you make and glue in shaped blocks that fit between frame and skin. Depending on how thick the stringer is, you can also double it up between the frames to match their height, and if you want belt and suspenders you add a ply plate on top.

 

I own a 1960 Carver cold molded mahogany runabout. Not the same, but similar.

For your large hole, start off by doing precisely what Rumars says. Cut the outer layer 4" bigger all the way around with a router set just under 6mm and use a box cutter to finish. Your cutout to the stringers/frames means you have nowhere to bed the first layer of plywood, so you need to sister it all which will help. Otherwise, you can cut partway over to the frames, but I would not.

By the way, planking is a generic term. Just because the boat is ply doesn't mean it isn't planked.

As for the redamaging question, wooden boats are meant to ride on cushioned bunks. If the boat is damaged twice, same area, this is a trailer bunking error or trailer suspension is too rigid. Full stop. The bunk or standoff is too short, based on what I see. The cushioning is not complex; just 12mm floor pad with thick carpet, but the bunk must not end where it can press up into the middle of a span as Rumars mentions from a different direction. Over 5 years posting here and Rumars has rarely if ever been wrong; consider my remark an augment to his..he is also correct that adding planking is not the right move, but a different tack is all than mine.

Epoxy use is all rules and protocol. West System pumps are fairly good for your needs. You will be mixing small batches, ftmp. One pump of slow resin and one pump of slow hardener and you stir for 90 seconds and precoat your scarf joint. Another pump of each and you mix 90 seconds and add about a medicine cup of cabosil or maybe two until the mixture doesn't collapse into itself and you butter both sides of the joint with a 1/16" or 1-1.5mm vee trowel and then use stay in fasteners to hold it during cure. Probably some bronze or stainless screws predrilled holes. Clean it up..

For the thru hulls; same idea. Overcut the outer 6mm planking maybe 1.5", bed the repair 6mm with 5200 and a pressure applied from a jack or screws; worst case. Then make the inside plug and bed in 5200. In these cases; you can buttblock with a piece over the inside plug.

 

I see a LOT of small rot areas. You need to learn how to use epoxy.

All rot gets removed; then you get some mahogany and make plugs that are close, but not perfect and bed them in epoxy. A good quality Festool sander and you sand the repair flush; then fill again. Practice on some junk..

The reason for using the wood is epoxy cannot really be set thicker than about 3/8 to 1/2" max or it'll crack and even burn or smoke, catch fire, etc.

 

I will try to answer a lot of things here and a couple questions from my end as well. I know I haven't answered in a couple days but I've been very busy and been rebuilding my 4 cylinder Perkins and stern drive.

So yes I will scarf the stringers back in where the rot ends, I have already checked where it ends and there are knife lines where it stops, some will be replaced totally and some will be scarfed only. Id prefer to learn how to mix epoxy myself as I think id do better learning it for future use than just using pre mixed, only thing I'm not the greatest when it comes to inches.

Rumars when you said about me increasing the thickness by 12 mm I didn't really mean that I was planning on adding a beam on the inside but I didnt think of just adding another stringer I thought about adding a frame going across from the chine to the stringer with a beam on top but your idea sounds a lot better of running a stringer 4 frames along if thats what you meant. about adding the ply back in I was going to scarf somewhat in on the first layer but I dont have much to scarf to and obviously the second ply which would be the outer one flush with the hull yes I will may it larger and scarf that in, but I was thinking of adding a 3mm or 6mm plate over the top of that one not as a technically structural piece but more as a protection plate to keep the actual fixed damaged area in good condition, I think it would help it may not do much but it may just help and also I'm on the canal I'm not on the sea, top speed is 5mph so I'm not looking for performance nor is it tally ho. I was thinking of adding a larger ply plate on the inside (being 6mm) to allow for the load area to be spread more and for a slight bit of structure. Id look at it as a 4 layer sandwich of ply (1 on inside, 2 in the middle and then 1 on the outer)

Also gluing the stringers back in place yes the ply is incredibly clean so it will be quite a good bond but I will have to nail through again as I will have to cut all the nails to remove the old timber and add the new in.

Sealing the through holes I understand you suggested using 5200, would it be okay to use epoxy to bond it in place? Id like to seal them up forever.

I will be replacing my transom soon as I need to get that done before I patch the hole really, I'm replacing it as I dont want to have woodworm or patched stern drive holes, I have the template for it and I dont think it would be hard to remove and I will replace it with proper marine ply and west system epoxy to laminate and bond it.

You'd be surprised there's not many rot areas at all I'm guessing your looking at the stringers and chines if so then yeh there's a lot but there's no rot in the mahogany but I do have mahogany dowls and plugs some vintage plugs made by an old British company that doesn't exist anymore and some recently purchased dowls from sapele. Also a question I've got to add a frame back into my vessel and obviously I got to screw from the outside of the hull inwards, I am using brass flatheads for this made by a local machine shop, Bronze silicone doesn't really exist much in the uk and well you can buy it off eBay but I dont know where its coming from so I dont trust it and A4 stainless is good but it snaps quite easily and this is a wooden boat so it will flex and brass can flex a bit better than A4. I was thinking of counter boring by about 3mm and then obviously drilling the correct size hole and screwing in, but how would I seal that hole? Epoxy with some cabasil in it? or something different?

Trailer wise well dont worry about that as the trailer doesn't exist anymore, it became scrap metal, it was a crudely made yard trailer and it was already falling apart and what caused the damage to the hull was the guy created T brackets to sit the vessel on which was fine but he went and bolted a angle piece to the T locking it in place and instead of following the shape of the hull when he locked it in he did it the other way so it was pointing up into the hull and one side had to go before the other and it was repaired before but it then went and broke it a second time. A proper trailer may be made in the future but I doubt it.

To my last question for today, I need to seal this hull if not fibreglass then what should I be doing? Epoxy paint like jotun 90? or West system with fast drying and added aluminium flakes for abrasion resistance? as I would like to find a solution for it so i can paint the hull ready to go back in.

Sorry for such a long message with many questions its just I haven't found a long lasting decent solution for them until now.

Cheers.

 

Seal with seams with a preferred seam sealer available locally.

Use an epoxy primer on the bottom. I prefer Interprotect 2000 apply to bare wood as per manufacturer.

Don't bother with an epoxy coating.

 

I'm surprised to not epoxy coat like with west system I thought it would extend the life of the vessel as well as some of the original plywood vessels are fibre glassed and they seem to be in good shape but they were originally fibre glassed when they were still upside down by a company who has knowledge in doing it so it wouldn't fail.

If thats the case I shall use either
5200 or 291i for seam sealing
and then Jotun 90 AL, I used to paint steel hulls with jotun 90 and I find its an extremely tough paint to use, one vessel got painted about 10 years ago I think and its yet to even flake. Cheers Fallguy

 

The West System bottom is not designed for plywood planked hulls. The West System encapsulates all sides of all planks in epoxy. You cannot do it because you are not deplanking the entire boat!

What you CAN do is called a 5200 bottom. This is a bottom that is fully sealed with permanent adhesive to above the waterline. This is also called a no soak 5200 bottom. No soak because the hull stays dry i side if you did it right. If not, take it out, dry it out and fix the error.

It is the only practical way to seal a plywood planked hull. Then ingress is from above only which done well; can also be reduced or eliminated.

 

Ok wow I've never heard of a 5200 bottom but i just searched it up and i see its repairing the issues with the hull and then spreading of 5200 and adding a new layer of material being whatever is used for it.

Hmm sounds interesting and it may benefit my vessel due to the holes i have in the hull and allowing it to protect it and bearing in mind its basically still a brand new hull as its never been in the water, it may last even longer with it.

Well now here's the question how would i do it? I understand i need to repair my holes and get them flush with the hull and sand all old paint off (i got a dewalt xr orbital) and then coat it with 5200 and add a new layer on.

Seems not too hard but I shouldn't say that as i know it would be for me doing it for the first time, obviously though I've got a rather larger boat to do and I've got a keel and chine to get around and depends on how far up the hull you got to go to seal it because mines a Deep V.