Propane V R22

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by Frosty, May 14, 2012.

  1. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member


    True --but its not usual for these to leak . It is usual for a violent evacuation through a rubber hose failure, It is impossible to cause a dangerous explosion with a few ounces of propane.

    propane / butane needs oxygen mix to generate any heat, if not it is just a yellow cold flame.

    A violet evacuation is just seconds and usually takes the oil from the compressor with it which is more explosive than the LPG.

    IF you had a leak and IF there was an ignition source it still could not do damage of any consequence.


    http://www.hychill.com.au/pdf/pasolpgr.pdf
     
  2. jehardiman
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    jehardiman Senior Member

    Ok, here is a list of things that ASHRAE (American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air Conditioning Engineers) list as refrigerants. (propane is R-290 BTW)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_refrigerants

    Idealy you want something with:
    A boiling point just below normal temp range with high molecular mass and low critical pressure for good for heat transfer and efficiency,
    Good lubrication but not a solvent and low environmental persistance, but those are generally exclusive.
    Low ozone depletion and high permissible exposure limit/low toxicity with low flammability (ASHRAE rated A1) for safety/health/green-ness issues.
    And cheap.

    Last time I looked when I put a new heat pump in my house 5 years ago, R-410a (Puron) was the current go-to working fluid here in the states for small/moderate sized units with the higher efficiency beating out initial costs.

    http://www.trane.com/commercial/uploads/pdf/cso/121/The Future of Refrigerants.pdf
     
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  3. sdowney717
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    sdowney717 Senior Member

    high pressures and not environmentally friendly, uses more power.

    Propane hydrocarbon, natural, no ozone, no green house, low pressure, uses much less power and I bet equiptment built for r22 or r12 will last much longer. No need for PAG oil so no acids will form which eat out the insides.

    Hydrocarbon refrigerants are no brainer choice but some in the industry oppose it as I think it threatens their business model of expensive "high trained" tech and personal issues.

    I bought some of what these people sell and is suitable for AC and fridge uses.

    http://hydrocoolonline.com/technical.html

    I plan to put in my boats AC system someday. A copper tube broke and it lost its charge years ago and still have not gotten around to it yet.
     
  4. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    I think youlle change you mind when you see how much it is. It doesnt matter how none green it is if you keep it in the pipes.
     
  5. sdowney717
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    sdowney717 Senior Member

    With 410A wear and tear will be greater, even if they use heavier duty parts. The whole system cost must be higher. All at an effort to avoid hydrocarbon refrigerants which much of the rest of the world is moving towards.

    http://www.franklinheatandair.com/R410A.html

    http://bobsheatingandair.com/newfreonr410a.html
    pricey to recharge with R22 so they wish to force conversions to 410a
    Instead of just promoting a hydrocarbon refrigerant which would be much more environmentally friendly by way of power consumption and land disposal of now 'obsolete AC systems'

     
  6. philSweet
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    philSweet Senior Member

    There is also the issue of what sort of stuff ends up inside the system when the compressor pukes. Stuff like catalytic metal dust and whatnot. Propane is way more flammable/explosive than r22 (r22 is considered nonflammable as far as transport and storage is concerned). Ask any ac tech more than 20 years old and they will tell you the best way to clean condenser fan motors and coils all packed with fuzzies is to attach a blowoff nozzle to the r22 can and blast the motor. I'm not going to do that with propane.... Hmmm.... now there's a reason to switch...:idea:

    Most of the environmental concerns are nonsense dreamed up by folks whose patents are about to run out. The only reason any of the regs exist is because of lobbyists and patent protection. I'm not saying that there isn't some truth to the matter, just that the truth is purely a convenience to the lobbyists. It has NOTHING to do with the forces behind the law, and there is absolutely zero enforcement of refrigerant regs in the US. I was able to keep a pair of old but sturdy ice machines in the keys running with Cuban R11. Got DDT from the same guy. Both are perfectly reasonable things to use if used properly. Both could be effectively regulated if that was the goal- but it isn't.

    A sudden exit of propane, oils, and catalytic metal dust from an ac could definitely ruin your whole day. How about a leak in a heat pump running auxilliary strip heat??? No thanks.

    I would prefer to keep Frosty around and not replace him with Toasty.
     
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  7. philSweet
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    philSweet Senior Member

  8. sdowney717
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    sdowney717 Senior Member

    That is the effect of the industry on the US market.

    Worldwide it is different and they dont push the fear mongering using hydrocarbons that you see in the US. USA industry prefers to keep using expensive more energy sucking refrigerants.

    This sort of similar to world going metric system and USA refusing to budge.

    http://www.engas.com.au/About-Hydrocarbon-Refrigerants.php

     
  9. philSweet
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    philSweet Senior Member

    I have no problem with any of this, but those refrigerants are not the propane you buy for your grill. They may have names that start with pro--- but that just refers to the number of carbon atoms in the hydrocarbon. There are many isomeres and their properties as far as combustibility, flash point, boiling point, lower/upper explosive limits vary enormously.

    One thing that completely puzzles me is this nonsense about efficiency improvements with regards to hydrocarbons. Based on what? Equal system price? Do some test methods favor these systems? I'd like to know under what circumstances any hydrocarbon based system is 30% more efficient than the hcfc refrigerant that it replaces.

    I hope nobody thinks I'm supporting the current corupt regulatory structure in the US. My last post should have made that clear enough. But the thermochemistry of the stuff we're talking about just doesn't allow for anything like 30% improvements.
     
  10. CDK
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    CDK retired engineer

    I already mentioned that in post #8.

    A standard has been set for propane: refrigerant R290a. It still isn't 100% isopropane, but the small amount of isobutane seems acceptable for the purpose.
    Propane for the grill is called HD-5; it contains up to 5% contaminants, including the smelly ethanethiol.
    Separating propane and butane is done by distillation; the process has to be repeated several times, just like ethanol and water it is nearly impossible to reach 100% purity.
     

  11. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    Maybe it is not the same but it would work. If you let the air out of a tyre it will freeze the schrader valve threads.

    Refrigerant is just better at releasing its heat. Hydrocarbons (with 5% impurities) would work ?
     
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