probably crazy

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by peterAustralia, Nov 2, 2018.

  1. trip the light fandango
    Joined: Apr 2018
    Posts: 96
    Likes: 12, Points: 8
    Location: Rhyll Phillip Island Victoria Australia

    trip the light fandango Junior Member

    If resale is important as a return on investment, then you don't want to alter a hull significantly, unless you're a gun. A timber boat in the 1930s[?] beached at kitty miller bay which is small and shallow ocean fronted, added 8ft in the middle and return to the water a week later, I am a little in awe of the shipwright/team who pulled that off. It sounds like a hard chine fibreglass boat is what you could be after to me . A 25 ft bertram that is basically gutted may be the answer you're after. They are so big you don't need to add, you could build a platform off the stern. to sail you might consider using kites where there is sail room and a couple of say 14ft beach cat sails and rigging that can be dropped and stored[3or 4 knots?]/hot water set up. The wind resistance of the massive cabin is horrendous but you were always going to have to compromise, get a really good anchor set up or two or 3 . A100 horsepower old merc car diesel with its auto still on is a new set of problems you might like to ponder..ha any old good marine diesel will do, it won't plane while you own it anyway, otherwise the $400 hourly fuel bill might spoil your budgeting if you could, Something like that if you make your changes reversible could just may be saleable when you have finished, oh and those gunwhale fold down dagger boards[forgot the term] could be quite pretty and practical. I also harbour nutty plans of distant projects I confess[ I have a current one and are easily distracted] but I can't tell you in case everyone does it [ha] and I miss the boat. you need a a good safe heater/hot water here I reckon.. regards
     
  2. cracked_ribs
    Joined: Nov 2018
    Posts: 5
    Likes: 2, Points: 3
    Location: Vancouver and the Gulf Islands, BC

    cracked_ribs Junior Member

    I can understand wanting to live on a boat - where I live a house is around $2m and 350k would get you a small apartment a commutable distance from town. My wife and I looked at buying a boat to live on but eventually decided against it.

    But a good friend of mine who sells Boston Whalers for a living hit 40 and still didn't have money lined up, so he started keeping an eye on the local market. Of course that's second nature for him because he buys and sells boats for a living but still, all he was doing was trolling Craigslist every so often, and sure enough, he spotted a 1956 42' Monk all set up as a liveaboard. The guy was asking 15,000 but it was the beginning of fall, and my friend was struck by the bad timing so he called the guy. Sure enough, there was a fed up wife and an annual moorage about to run out, and the guy was pretty motivated. The boat has a running Lehman strait 6 diesel and B-grade restored interior. Half a dozen plaques from wooden boat show placings over the last ten years. Full kitchen. Diesel stove. 3kw genset and the usual accessories.

    So my friend calls up the local scrapper to get an estimate on the salvage value: $1500. He calls the guy back and asks what's going to happen if the boat doesn't sell in a month and the guy says he's afraid it's going to the scrapper for salvage.

    $2500 liveaboard.

    [​IMG]

    My point is that you can totally do a liveaboard for dirt cheap. But you do it by buying the right used boat, not by building weird alt-scows.

    Being thoroughly embedded in the marine industry, incidentally, my buddy lined up liveaboard moorage within about three days. He's very happy on the boat. I have given him a hand with a bit of the maintenance and she's a beautiful boat. He also has a seven year old son, who is basically living a young boy's dream. So it can be done with huge success but again, there's a smart way to do this stuff and it's usually going to involve letting others take the financial losses and making well-timed buys at rock bottom prices.
     
    fallguy and JamesG123 like this.
  3. Squidly-Diddly
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 1,280
    Likes: 31, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 304
    Location: SF bay

    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    Sounds like solid advice.

    After gaining enough education to be taken seriously, start putting the word out you are looking to take the right boat "off someone's hands" at boat yards, boat supply, marines, etc. I bet every boat repair business knows of a dozen cases of some semi-wealthy, semi-eccentric boat owner with some big project that got put on hold for decade or more, and no one stays healthy or lives forever.

    Last big Stock Market/Real Estate (and yachting) bubble burst here in SF bay there was a "crisis" of abandoned boats, many in the 30-40ft range and in not-too bad condition. Main reason was not just payments but mooring fees. Seems lots of owners got evicted from marinas and at that point couldn't pony up for massive trailer for 9+ft beam boat (because suddenly shortage of trailers so only brand new for sale) and tow to storage, so they left them anchored in The Delta Sacramento–San Joaquin River Delta - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento%E2%80%93San_Joaquin_River_Delta

    Then sooner or later someone would hop aboard and de-anchor the boat and it would drift and get stuck somewhere. IIRC many owners were "de-badging" boats on the theory that RePo men needed to confirm Serial #s and Reg #s to act.

    PS-thinking outside the boat, instead of trying to find a single "big enough to live aboard" boat, maybe breakup boat's duties. One for clothes/office and one for kitchen/sleeping or one storage and one actual living. One semi-permanent moored and one that moors along side it. Like having two cars. Nice to be able to leave one at the repair shop, etc. IMO two or more boats might attract less attention than a single boat, from both bad guys and "good guys". Bad guys will think less chance of no one around, "good guys" will think "must be OK if its not just one idiot".

    Instead of compromise, specialize with one motorboat and one sailboat. I'd get one "floating condo"1990 Mainship Double Cabin 41 For Sale https://www.popyachts.com/motor-yachts-for-sale/mainship-double-cabin-41-in-tortilla-flat-arizona-12668 and one Chinese junk.

    Keep your powder(money) dry (as in not in boating pardon pun) and wait for next crash, which I hear is coming shortly.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
  4. peterAustralia
    Joined: Mar 2006
    Posts: 349
    Likes: 23, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 233
    Location: Melbourne Australia

    peterAustralia Senior Member

    thanks to all

    I will keep my eye our for a bargain. Return on investment not all that important. Rent here (sharing a house only, one of 3 people in 3 room house), you are looking at $150 a week. You might get cheaper but not easy. That is $7.5K a year, or $15K for two years. If I can have something nice for $15K then that is OK.

    The box boat is an option, Triloboats: Avast, Ye Curvy Dogs! http://www.triloboats.com/modeltours.html something like that,,,, around 28ft x 10ft. or even 24 x 10
    I drew a couple doodles years eariler
    tacking-outrigger.com Small Liveaboard http://www.tackingoutrigger.com/b_boat.html
    tacking-outrigger.com Sailing Barge http://www.tackingoutrigger.com/sailing_barge.html

    It is not just the hull that is an issue, it is the little things, the galley, radio, rudder, head, electrics, bilge pump, nav lights, compass, windows. If I can get all that initially it just allows me to concentrate on hull.

    I need space, to walk around, must have good standing headroom (I am 6'2") Essential to be able to stretch my legs and move around easily.

    Propulsion, I prefer outboard to inboard. Have found repairs to inboard very expensive, outboard just throw it in car and take to dealer.

    as for starting item,,just on internet,, something like these,
    Sailboat, easy to sail | Sail Boats | Gumtree Australia Brisbane South East - Coorparoo | 1200411559 https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/coorparoo/sail-boats/sailboat-easy-to-sail/1200411559
    Mooring Minder | Sail Boats | Gumtree Australia Ryde Area - Ryde | 1200347554 https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/ryde/sail-boats/mooring-minder/1200347554
    23FT YACHT ROBERTS FIBRE GLASS 4 BERTH 4 NEW SAILS | Sail Boats | Gumtree Australia Parramatta Area - Rydalmere | 1161106123 https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/rydalmere/sail-boats/23ft-yacht-roberts-fibre-glass-4-berth-4-new-sails/1161106123


    am sure could get for less than asking
    extra funds to build plug, chop off keel and build outrigger modest. Outrigger can even be bamboo, or some second hand 12 inch pipe,

    second hand 41ft power boats like those above going for $2.5K seem rare in Australia, our boat prices are higher than USA mainly because our economy has been better in past
     
  5. cracked_ribs
    Joined: Nov 2018
    Posts: 5
    Likes: 2, Points: 3
    Location: Vancouver and the Gulf Islands, BC

    cracked_ribs Junior Member

    Well, I'm not in the US either...but the point is that the above-mentioned boat also wasn't selling for $2500. It was selling for 15,000.

    You would be surprised how often big cabin cruisers go for peanuts. At $120/foot just for a slip, big older boats facing another annual moorage bill plus a possible haul-out for new bottom paint might etc get advertised at twenty grand, and sold for five. This happens frequently. Most people who have been in the boat game a while could probably tell you about a big boat they saw given away. That happened with several at my dry stack marina when it closed a few months ago.
     
  6. MindanaoTech
    Joined: Nov 12, 2018
    Posts: 10
    Likes: 0, Points: 1
    Location: Nevada

    MindanaoTech Junior Member

    The way to go is BIG. The open ocean 500ft to unlimited miles offshore is “free”. Get a few friends to split the cost of a 200+ ft “pontoon” catamaran/trimaran/quadramaran....park it outside a marina breakwall. Pay for a “dinghy” slip or dry dock (as long as it comes with a 24/7 parking spot). Only thing is that someone(I believe the going rate for a full time Filipino/Pakistani/Sri Lankan... seaman is $600/month if you can’t manage to keep the yacht permanently manned on your own) has to be on board to keep the yacht being declared a navigational hazard. 50 year storm passes through? Head into the marina- they can’t kick you out in this case (or charge you)...safety first lol.
     
  7. Mike Inman
    Joined: Oct 2018
    Posts: 48
    Likes: 5, Points: 8
    Location: Jacksonville, Florida

    Mike Inman Junior Member

    In the 1960s, while all the space exploration stuff was going on, there was also quite a bit of study of colonizing the oceans. Lots of trials have been run, and while we have the technology and can live on or underwater indefinitely and possibly even sustainably, the cost/labor required to maintain sea-dwellings is an impractical multiple of the cost to maintain similar dwellings on land.

    Some cities have driven their real-estate up to such a premium that it is, indeed, cheaper and more luxurious to live aboard at the city marina than the same money spent on a dwelling in the town or even suburbs, but that's somewhat artificial/social scarcity at play. If you're willing to relocate to less in-demand areas on land, you can live tremendously cheaper there than on a boat anywhere, particularly if your dwelling in the boonies is only 40'x12' with no surrounding land.

    Sure, there are benefits to the ocean life, like free fish, but the cost of maintaining a boat where you can get those free fish are usually quite a bit higher than just having a land based house and buying all the fish you can eat from the market.
     
  8. MindanaoTech
    Joined: Nov 12, 2018
    Posts: 10
    Likes: 0, Points: 1
    Location: Nevada

    MindanaoTech Junior Member

    Hmm... so if I run some numbers by of boat “costs” and include some sketchier numbers as far as agro/fishing (on board as opposed to terrestrial... if the sea based “living space” comes out on top does that mean that the cost/labor figures done in the sixties were off? Or is it just apples and oranges?

    No doughy the domicile itself is ultimately less cost on land- one could build out of the right mixture or dirt and sand almost anywhere that there is no authority to tell you what you can build. However a plain old bamboo raft say 1000 feet long ang 1000 feet wide and 12 feet tall would entail approx wcould be made with 42,000 tons or. $840,000 of bamboo in its natural state (good for 10 years at sea) and assuming foreign labor, another $160,000 or so. This 24 acres cold be submerged to a draft of 4 feet with another million dollars of bamboo and labor 4 stories high in medium density bamboo nila huts (maybe only 5 years lifespan at sea). That is a complete disposable/ recyclable living space for 5,000 residents. Or in monthly rent terms $2,000,000/90 months/ 5000 people....$4.25/ month rent each person. At 400ft2 per person... I own a 60x27 double wide out in almost nowhere. Market price for family of 5- $100/ month per perso. Even the tax alone (because free and clear) is higher than the bamboo seastead. Hydroponics works just as well at sea than on land (possible better because of more stable temp and humidity. And if one wanted to compare aquaculture to let’s say ranching? Or seaweed production vs farming soybean or wheat or corn? It would be an order of magnitude more efficient in either case in favor of sea based. Actually a friend of my twin brother had proposed a sea stead where you receive income by collecting used tires while building a seastead out of them. Just as solar is finally seen as more efficient than fossil fuel (it wasn’t always the case and still hasn’t caught up production wise) someday only the ultra rich will be able to afford to live on land. Solar/sea composting is light years ahead of any municipal waste system. And before anyone “demands” facts and figures, do you own research on price/ton of bamboo derived charcoal (it is about 2 times the cost of lignite in local markets) AND the average wage of workers in say Madagascar). EVERY flipping time population has grown too fast for the rulers to control, there has been a WAR. Throughout all history this correlation holds true. Of course seasteading is repressed.
     
  9. peterAustralia
    Joined: Mar 2006
    Posts: 349
    Likes: 23, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 233
    Location: Melbourne Australia

    peterAustralia Senior Member

    To wrap up this thread, like to say a thanks to crakced ribs. Obviously buying second hand is better than building in terms of cost. My problem was trying to a suitable boat for modest sum. What I did was search for houseboat instead of yacht. Most houseboats here come on a couple of pontoons and hence are higher in the water, have more windage and a higher center of gravity.

    But whilst looking found this. I did not know this sort of boat existed until now. Is the sort of thing I am looking for. Good space, not too big, transportable, reasonable seakeeping, lowish windage, affordable price. The hull looks good, the interior needs a lot of work, price is negotiable. Price is in Australian dollars, one Oz dollar equals about 72 US cents as of now. 26ft x 8ft is nice size, enough space to walk around without going crazy, propulsion can be as small as a pair of 15hp outboards though maybe a little more preferable

    26 foot Tri Hull Ocean/Lake/River Houseboat | Motorboats & Powerboats | Gumtree Australia Great Lakes Area - Smiths Lake | 1192940453 https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/smiths-lake/motorboats-powerboats/26-foot-tri-hull-ocean-lake-river-houseboat/1192940453

    Price is negotiable,,, think $10K bit high for condition it is in.

    this ok too , been listes since march 2017, think fiberglass hull, thus no rot, interior needs a lot of work
    HOUSEBOAT BARGAIN | Other Boats & Jet Skis | Gumtree Australia Redland Area - Macleay Island | 1140830173 https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/macleay-island/other-boats-jet-skis/houseboat-bargain/1140830173

    this nice too

    Gumtree Australia https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/ingle-farm/motorboats-powerboats/boat-houseboat-house-boat-river-cruiser-cruiser/1195569696e


    these sorts of vessels are very similar to the ones I was sketching, gives me confidence that the things I sketch out are not all bad

    ok,, think in good position now in terms of ideas,,, can close thread soon
     
  10. Mike Inman
    Joined: Oct 2018
    Posts: 48
    Likes: 5, Points: 8
    Location: Jacksonville, Florida

    Mike Inman Junior Member

    To make VERY short math of sea vs land living cost comparison with the two million dollar bamboo raft - however long that bamboo lasts at sea (not bloody likely 10 years) it will last a great deal longer on land, and provide at least double the shelter space, in a place where fresh water is likely easier to collect and store, crops are easier to grow, livestock is easier to maintain, etc. It's not that man is incapable of living at sea, it is more that he has much more free time while on land.

    The only thing making life on land expensive is other people charging rent, go somewhere the people aren't charging high rents and you'll live a lot easier than attempting to start evolving into the next dolphins.

    And... as for not so loony bamboo raft vessels - seaworthy craft that 2-4 people might consider living aboard and traveling in bluewater commonly consume 4000+ hours of labor to build these days, and hundreds of hours a year to maintain, many hundreds if they are actively sailed on a regular basis - roughly double those costs to estimate the cost of materials those laborers are working with - materials which are mostly only currently available from land based sources (true even of bamboo). If you only intend to work a standard week for 30 years of your life, that's only 60,000 hours in a lifetime. To build just one boat consumes 8,000 of those hours, and to operate and maintain that boat consumes 10-20 hours a week, or more depending on what you're doing with it. It is a viable lifestyle, but not a particularly efficient one.
     
  11. MindanaoTech
    Joined: Nov 12, 2018
    Posts: 10
    Likes: 0, Points: 1
    Location: Nevada

    MindanaoTech Junior Member

    As much as I hate to hijack threads...I’ll help do so anyways for the hell of it. #1) preserved only by salt water bamboo fish traps generally last about 10 years (under water). Not the same as seaworthy but still intact. The loony raft above was extremely dense and thick. There would still be six feet of it above water fully loaded. It could be rebuilt in place with sporadic replenishing of fresh bamboo built on top at 200/ton including shipping if your in the wrong climate zone, otherwise 20/ton. And yes you can grow huge canes with aeroponics...you can live in canes while they are growing, the leaves protruding through the roof! And NO it would not last longer on land, unless you treat it with something better than salt water and keep it out of the dirt. The internal fungi eat bamboo in about 2-3 years (untreated).

    #2) I have to believe your bias against living at sea is 99% based on your ideal expensive bathtub you described above. The loony raft above was described as built in 8 hours per person every 7 1/2 years...if you can work as efficiently as a native from Madagascar. You do your own math and roll around in lead bellies all you want.

    #3) I did not describe the bamboo raft as a viable blue water crossing vessel but as an artificial island. Preferably it would lurk around in protected bays or semi protected coastline with mild climate and island barriers (San Diego, San Francisco, or even Santa Monica Bay). Here one might find 100s of thousands of people exited about living permanently or temporarily in a creative island resort (as owners of their own time share island).
    #4) barren land is as bad or worse than being isolated at sea. No electric, no neighbors, usually no water...and no prospects of getting any. You could have autonomous electricity generating sail boats all over the places I described for the loony raft. It is a efficient lifestyle if enough people (who aren’t mind warped by the status quo) anti up together, too overcome the initially significant obstacles the sea offers. No work no play.
     
  12. Mike Inman
    Joined: Oct 2018
    Posts: 48
    Likes: 5, Points: 8
    Location: Jacksonville, Florida

    Mike Inman Junior Member

    Sounds like you've got a winner there - work that down into an elevator pitch and seek initial funding, better still - crowdfund that, except... if you're crowdfunding then nobody in the project will have enough clout to keep the regulators from shutting you down. It's not a perfect world, it's just the only one we've got.
     
  13. MindanaoTech
    Joined: Nov 12, 2018
    Posts: 10
    Likes: 0, Points: 1
    Location: Nevada

    MindanaoTech Junior Member

    I dropped my “kickstart” project. It would not have qualified because it was Philippine based #1 and number #2 I would not have been allowed to offer “equity” in the form of time shares which, yes I believe that regulators can do anything they want, may be the only possibility left to avoid “yacht building codes”. They have limited length now for private yachts in Europe. My son is a dual citizen so I’m going with a plan to build him a superyacht(16th century technology trimaran) in the Philippines and have him document it there, commercially, while simultaneously registering it in California as a pleasure vessel. Maybe a loophole... maybe double the regulations... we’ll see.
     
  14. cracked_ribs
    Joined: Nov 2018
    Posts: 5
    Likes: 2, Points: 3
    Location: Vancouver and the Gulf Islands, BC

    cracked_ribs Junior Member

    Happy to be a help even if indirectly!

    You know if you spent a year looking you could probably get a fully fitted out houseboat in the style you've highlighted there for a couple thousand bucks. Sooner or later there will be a guy who's getting divorced and who has to move his boat before his wife sells the property it's been sitting on. Or one with all new equipment, but the guy has run out of money and time and discovered a crack in the hull and you can have the thing if you haul it away.

    Seen this kind of thing many times.

    Wives and storage will get you something for pennies.
     

  15. goodwilltoall
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 765
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    Location: nation of Ohio

    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Took a quick peek at tri hull houseboat link, it looks like its aluminum (which i like alot) and similar to Bolger's "Watervan", which is plywood and trailerable and sold 2 years at a asking price of $4500.
     
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