Proa Questions: Atlantic vs Pacific

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Inquisitor, Jun 22, 2010.

  1. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    I know of another 16-17 metre proa design being built - almost ready for launching - but I've been warned to say no more. The two Atlantic proas Newick's Cheers and Delarge's (Ollier?) Lestra Sports, (which broke an Atlantic crossing record and did very well in the La Rochelle/New Orleans Race) would be the most successful of the larger proas. Lestra Sports looks very much to be the renamed Francofolie.
     
  2. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    I heard Lestra Sports was designed in part by Dick Newick who pulled his name after changes were made he didn't agree with. When not sailing the Atlantic styles such as Cheers drift with the ama to windward like a Pacific proa because of the cabin and rig windage of the mainhull.
     
  3. KSONeill
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    KSONeill Junior Member

    There's a web site with a bunch of information about these boats in French. The site dates to about 2000, but the data is still interesting. It's here:

    http://www.goldenoldies.biz/

    by Vincent Besin, the current owner of Cheers. Laurent Coquilleau translated it for us on the proa_file yahoo group in 2009:

    *************************************

    1979 MERLIN, then AZULAO II and finally FLEURY MICHON II
    A 42' schooner rig owned by Nick Clifton; she finished second in the 1979 Bermuda race, behind ROGUE WAVE, designed by Dick Newick. She was wrecked in the OSTAR 1980 following a collision with another boat. The boat has sailed 17,000 miles prior to the OSTAR.

    1979 LADY GODIVA, then GODIVA CHOCOLATIER, then SAINT MARC II and finally FUNCKY BUT CHIC
    A small 34' schooner built for Rory Nugent; she capsized in the OSTAR 80; then owned by Denis Gliksman. She is a Dick Newick design. She is now in dry dock in Port Laforet, France, nearby the CDK shipyard (famous French ship yard for racing sailboat). She is currently co-owned by Denis Gliksman and Jean Le Cam (a famous French skipper). You can find some (sobering) pictures of her at:
    http://www.wingo.com/newick/godiva/index.html

    1979 ETERNA ROYAL QUARTZ
    The first French built, a 54' boat designed by Dick Newick/ Jean-Marie Vidal/ Christian Augé. She was destroyed after a collision in the OSTAR 80 after one third of the race.

    1980 TAHITI DOUCHE, then SAINT MARC
    Owned by Alain Gliksman, she was a 55'09 sloop designed by Daniel Charles. Ran the race La Baule-Dakar in 1983, broke her daggerboards and lost a race which was reachable for her. She has been restored by Patrick Luscher and is now based in Saint Martin (is it the Dutch West Indies? Or the South of France? I am not sure...). TAHITI DOUCHE was first a schooner, then modified by Christian Augé, then modified a second time by Marc Lombard and finally modified by Patrick Luscher.

    1981 EKA GRATA
    First cruising proa, a sloop of 18m designed by Daniel Charles for Nicklauss Schiess. Destroyed in 1982 (smashed to the shore) after a journey England / France / Spain / Mediterranean Sea / Azores / France.

    1981 FUNAMBULE, then GUADELOUPE, then LESTRA SPORT and finally SHARP VIDEO before transformation into a 60' schooner named FRANCOFOLIES in 1990 A Guy Delage schooner of 14 m waterline length, finished first in "Tour de la Guadeloupe" in 81; Guadeloupe is one of the French West indies islands. Finished first of "Trophée des multicoques" in 81. Finished first in its class and second overall in New York - Brest 81. Was world speed record holder in "open" category (I am not sure of what it means...) in Brest in '81 (the record held 5 years). She was the smallest boat that beat the Atlantic Schooner record accross the Atlantic Ocean, in a little bit more than 10 days. Finished first in its class and third overall in La Rochelle - New Orleans in 82. New Round Guadeloupe record in '82. Raced Transat en double in '83 skippered by Dany Delage and Béatrice Druon under the name SHARP VIDEO.

    1982 ROSIERE
    Flying proa rigged as a sloop, too complex and fold itseld prior to Route du Rhum 82.

    1985 LANGUEDOC ROUSSILLON
    Owned by Guy Delage, lost its mast and then held in gridlock in politico-juridico-economic mess.

    1986 LE PASSAGER DU VENT
    Sloop prao used in chartering

    1987 FUMEE NOIRE
    20m/9.6m, schooner, with 3 beams, designed and built by Christian Auge and Denis Kergomar as a working boat for the Marquises Islands (French Pacific islands), modified for racing but without success. Participated to the "Tour de l'Europe" 1987 in sloop configuration. Currently is dire economical situation with skipper Christian Augé in Brest, France.

    1989 CIMBA , KAURY
    Cruising flying proa, 38' sloop, owned by Russel Brown, are now in New England and are reserved, according to Dick Newick, to experienced sailors "with a deep philosophical conviction". It is worth noting that most people who sailed with Russ Brown got scared at one point or another. At the same time, Russ Brown has done ocran crossing with his boats in the worst sea conditions, always being in control.

    1990 1990 FRANCOFOLIES, ex-FUNAMBULE stretcehd to 60' by Lalou Roucayrol; lost its mast at the start of Route du Rhum 90; finished at an "unofficial" fourth place in La Baule Dakar 91

    1990 PRAO ( JP TURCO), built by Henri and Jean Cormier. You can see a picture here:
    http://membres.lycos.fr/ugmarie/zacheers/cheersjpg/cormierprao/cormierprao.htm
    Broke a shroud anchor point at the start of Route du Rhum 90. I know from French sailing magazine at the time that this boat was a tacker, not a shunter. It was actually made of different pieces from several other racing multihulls that had been partially destroyed in previous races. I believe the main hull and the beams and the float were from different boats.

    1992 DES JOURS MEILLEURS
    Pacific proa of 18m built at Vannes in France by Alain and Philippe GUILLARD, they are members of this forum!

    1999 PRAO DE CAMPING COTIER
    Camp cruiser, rigged as a schooner, of 10m; can be disassembling for trailering; it is defined as "biamphidrome" ( it sails as a Pacific Proa in light winds, and Atlantic proa in strong winds). Designed and built by Denis Kergomar at Ballaruc les bains, France.

    *********************************

    I thought I put all that stuff on the wiki page with the pictures, but perhaps I never did. I'll have to get on that.

    K O'N
     
  4. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Good stuff KSO, clears the air of all the mythology. Cav, you're talking about the wrong boat; it was Vidal's Eterna Royal Quartz that was the modified Newick, not Lestra Sports. Here is Eterna Royal Quartz with Vidal's sloop rig and two forestays? and 180 degree semi circular mainsail track that Newick wiped his hands from, he wanted a schooner type rig.
     

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  5. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Ah, thanks Gary. Why all the collisions? Were they below or did someone claim they couldn't tell what direction they were going? :) I'll write a tune titled "Are 2 bows better than one"...
     
  6. Alex.A
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    Alex.A Senior Member

    Considering that the polynesians etc were pretty boat savvy and created way cool nd functional boats - why didn't they consider it necessary to try the wtw/atlantic configuration? Cats for transport and pac proa for speed.....
    Once used to it and capsized a few time/learnt when to slack off - it has less stresses and materials?
     
  7. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    The Polynesians preferred the double canoe (catamaran) for long distance voyaging to that of the (unknown) Atlantic proa design - but their big double canoes, because of practical limitations in that availability of equal length trees were difficult to obtain, (I'm guessing) did have one hull longer than the other - so they were sort of Atlantic proa. The Micronesian preferred Pacific proas (but with with a balancing accommodation platform angled slightly up and to leeward) for their long trips but they didn't travel the vast distances of the Polynesian, across and down the Pacific to New Zealand for example.
     
  8. ThomD
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    ThomD Senior Member

    Atlantic proas, from what I get from my copy of project cheers, are basically lightened tris. While Pacifics are basically ballasted multis. So racing wise the Atlantics are supposed to be better. A Harry is kinda a best of both worlds, or at least a means of getting max righing out of a rearrangement of the Pacific, and we shall see how that works out racing when the bigun hits the water.
     
  9. Alex.A
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    Alex.A Senior Member

    The pac is more tender to be sure - and would be sailed as such - but then also has a smaller sail and lower c of e.... so less likely to be pushed to/past limit?
    Less stress to beams and float too....so a lighter boat? The temptation with WTW/harry etc is to over-canvas and there-in lies a problem? I' just wondering if the feeling of too much security might let one become complacent?
    Did anyone watch travel channel yesterday - "people of the sea"? Had a madagascar outrigger which was pretty cool!!!
     
  10. ThomD
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    ThomD Senior Member

    "The pac is more tender to be sure - and would be sailed as such - but then also has a smaller sail and lower c of e.... so less likely to be pushed to/past limit?"

    Which is a problem in high performance deals where pushing is where everyone is. In those situations you want the most performance you can get, which is means some ability to stand up to sail, while remaining as light as possible. For me the bigger issue is knowing where the limit is, and staying comfortable so I can perform at my best.


    "Less stress to beams"

    I guess for the most part, though I'm not sure it is all that big a deal. The Harry beams are pretty simple and straight forward, nicely designed. Not a real heavy or complex or iffy proposition. And apparently the engineer required they be well on the margin of safety for him to sign off on them. On a Newick, back in those days they were pretty heavy timber. But since the boat was pretty lightly canvased compared to an equivalent tri, just because of the special challenges involved, again, not terribly special beams.

    With a pacific the float can be very heavy so it can create a fair amount of loading itself. Normally the beams are light and often flexible because the rigs are small and the boat heels.

    At the end of the day experience proves what works, and everyone just copies it, and beams become a non-issue.

    Floats on the atlantic are just amas, they can be real light and still be fairly tough, since they aren't ballasted. The Harry is an interesting case since the float is the accomodation also, so it gets to share functions which is often a means to very efficient structures in a cruising type boat.

    "so a lighter boat?"

    Probably not. take the main hull as a constant for the purpose of racing or cruising. Take the weight out of the pacific ama and put it into the atlantic beams, very roughly similar. But one has to assume similar uses.


    "The temptation with WTW/harry etc is to over-canvas and there-in lies a problem? I' just wondering if the feeling of too much security might let one become complacent?"

    Seems like a bad attitude with any proa :) I keep trying to reel the Harry folks in every now and again and remind them that Rob's original stated intent was cheap, comfortable, low resistance, and low canvas area, to make a nice world for his seasick wife. Ok, some racing also...
     
  11. Alex.A
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    Alex.A Senior Member

    But.... there still remains the variety in proa's? If it were that simple, that it was sorted and everyone follwed, why is this?
    Why too do outriggers persist with only one float instead of two, when it seems obvious that two would work better - with not too much extra in cost/build effort? On sea people tv program - the guy was sent out alone in the boat/outrigger and capsized twice (saved by uncle in following boat) and didn't do it again..... harsh but he learnt quickly where the limit was.
    The other thing i wonder about is shunting in big waves/bad weather?
    One more question - the pod on pacs - is it there to prevent being knocked down? Surely/wight and balance wise it would be better between hulls?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2010
  12. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    "the pod on Pacific proas - is it there to prevent being knocked down? Surely/weight and balance wise it would be better between hulls?"
    If you're talking about traditional Micronesian or Melanesian proas, the pod would do very little in a knock down situation because it is quite high off the water and by the time it would take up buoyancy - it would be too late to halt a capsize. And I agree, the accommodation platform would be better between the outrigger and the main hull instead of being canterlevered out on the leeward side .... but that is how they did it, it worked for them, there are no rules and it arrived after a few thousand years of incremental developments - so who is to say they were wrong?
    And if you're thinking modern Atlantic or Pacific proas, yes, the (lightweight) pod is there to halt this knock over situation. Rob Denney has a lot more to say about this design configuration - and it is not positive.
     
  13. Alex.A
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    Alex.A Senior Member

    Yeah - was thinking more modern - surely better to use as a balance to counter knockdown than, as you say, to prevent after the fact......
    But i guess they are different animals, the WTW/atlantic being better for cruising - but cant help thinking that a pac could make a nice fast/light cruiser?
    As for beam loads - surely the harry has to be engineered for the possibility of bing overpowered and the wtw hull flying? Those loads would be quite large....
     
  14. rob denney
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    rob denney Senior Member

    In a breeze, the Pac proa _has_ to shift weight (crew, gear, water) to the windward hull or risk capsize . In light air, the harry/Atlantic _may_ choose to shift it to leeward for a very modest speed gain. On the Pac proa, this is a matter of seamanship and is done in adverse conditions. In a harry it is a matter of a small increase (maybe 5-10% of 5 or 6 knots) in speed in benign conditions.

    No cruising proa wil have springy beams. The ride is nicer in a short ww hull proa as the bows tend to hit the waves at the same time while going upwind. Reaching and running are the same.

    Absolutely. Sitting on the windward side in a sheltered cockpit is far drier than under the rig on the leeward side. According to a magazine article on Jzerro, there is nowhere dry to sit when it gets up to speed.

    Plenty.
    1) In cruising proas, the harry will be lighter than the Pacific as the accommodation hull is the stressed hull in the latter. Therefore, for a given volume, it will be heavier and more expensive. As an example, a 50' harry cruiser weighs 2 tonnes, the same as Jzerro, a 38' Pac proa. The harry has far more room and is much more comfortable to sail. A 50' harry with the same accommodation as Jzerro weighs about half a ton.
    2) The beams have to support the heaviest hull if the boat is caught aback. Happens rarely, but this is the design condition. Ditto the rig.
    3) A hull with the rig in it is very limited in accommodation options. I get as much accommodation in a 6m hull as Jzerro has in a 38'ter.
    4) A wide lee hull is prone to being slowed by the water. A wide ww hull much less so.
    5) A boat with a low righting moment (Pac proa) needs some form of safety pod to prevent it capsizing in a squall. This is weight and drag in the worst possible place.

    rob
     

  15. Alex.A
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    Alex.A Senior Member

    Why does it always come down to Brown/Jzerro - are there not more modern pac proa's? J is dated? Or was his the only one thats done some miles?
    Don't want to restart "that argument" all over again.......
     
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