Proa Circumnavigation?

[Igor]

while we are there...
Proa question:
one is deep reaching in increasing winds & seas - & has to "change tack" - i.e. shunt...!
Wouldn't this involve coming broadside to the seas & to a standstill, until being able to take off on the other "tack"? Sound dangerous to me if wind & seas are up enough...

As the proa sailors say, proa can be "parked" mid shunt (outrigger to windward) quite safely, zero stress. Doing it in narrow channel wind over tide is another matter.

 

[rob denney]

There is a tradeoff, dagger rudders are exposed, not ultra-shoal draft friendly and hard to build, their trunks have to be built strong an sealed behind bulkhead.

All true, but applicable to Newick rudders as well.
To quote Russ on his rudders:
"These rudders are retractable and fit in trunks like a daggerboard. Like a daggerboard they are vulnerable to damage, but unlike the daggerboards in most multihulls, the trunks are separated from the rest of the hull in both directions by watertight bulkheads to prevent flooding in the event of an impact that damages the trunk." He also says they are "complicated to build" which from someone with his boat building competence should be heeded.

Russel Brown has clocked thousands of ocean miles with this configuration (dagger rudders, daggerboard in the ama)

It may or may not be relevant, but when Russ sailed in the log infested Race to Alaska (in which he set the solo record, and was smart enough to mostly not sail at night), he chose a cat with kick up boards and rudders, not his proa with Newick rudders and daggerboard. "Ocean miles", are not very relevant as most rudder damage happens in shallow water, not offshore.

Madness proa too and they are fast, balanced, close winded boats.

The first Madness broke both it's Newick rudders when side loads were applied because they were not easy to lift and didn't kick up. The second (in NZ) also had rudder troubles. Do you have any footage or tracks of them going upwind?

My early proas (25-30 years ago) had Newick rudders. I sailed in a tidal area with lots of sandbanks and hit many of them. A benefit of a proa is you reverse everything (shunt) and sail off a grounding 'backwards'. Removing the rudders, replacing the foam, fixing broken rudders and leaky cases convinced me there was a better way. Side mounted rudders were the eventual choice after many other options were tried. The first ones were crude, the latest have a lower external profile and work well. There are no holes below the waterline, they can be partially lifted but still used in a storm or shallow water, kick up in a collision and are easily returned to their working position. They are big enough to not need a daggerboard and can be steered together or separately. Sailing loads are high, but simple and easily resisted. Impact loads are minimal so require minimal beefing up. The weight and cost savings are appreciable.

Some things to think about when you are looking at performance proa steering and leeway resistance:
1) Hit something solid (ground, whale, log, etc) at top speed. Does the daggerboard and case get damaged? If the cushion foam does it's job, how long does it take to remove the board and replace it. Is the board damaged? How quickly did the boat stop? Compare this with a similar speed impact in a car with crash zones at similar speeds and no one wearing a seatbelt.
2) Turn the rudders and run into something solid. Does the trailing edge hit the hull?
3) Can the rudders be used in shallow water sailing?
4) Can they be raised when facing the wrong way?
5) Can both rudders be used to enhance manoeuvrability?
6) Are they and the daggerboard visible so you can see weeds and plastic bags on them? How easy is it to remove these?

while we are there...
Proa questionne is deep reaching in increasing winds & seas - & has to "change tack" - i.e. shunt...!
Wouldn't this involve coming broadside to the seas & to a standstill, until being able to take off on the other "tack"? Sound dangerous to me if wind & seas are up enough...

Definitely a problem on proas with one jib shaped sail where the luff and leech swap roles. ie the tack becomes the clew and the clew the tack. For this reason, these sails are not common and would be lowered or reefed before shunting in extreme conditions.
Almost all proas have sails which, when the sheet is released, they weathercock and align with the breeze. They can then be sheeted on gradually as the boat goes from side on to the waves to the new course.
Proa rigs with headsails or spinnakers need the old one removed/furled and the new one hoisted/unfurled, but on rigs without headsails (Harryproas), it is a simple, safe and low stress operation.
Tacking boats need to have enough sail up to power the boat into and through the wind and waves (or, more commonly these days, they start the motor). If they don't make it, they go backwards putting a lot of strain on the rudders, steering and crew. Proas only need enough sail to maintain steerage way, which is a far less stressful way to cruise and to sail out of difficult spots like the infamous lee shore in 40 knots. Harryproas have an 80% reef for this reason.
Gybing in big wind and waves is a white knuckle experience on a conventional boat. Choosing the moment, sheeting on the main, turning and releasing the main without broaching. On a Harryproa you dump the mainsail sheet and luff onto a reach. The boat stops and drifts. Trim the new foresail on and bear away onto the new course. Trim the new aft sail. Simple, safe and easy operation at any stage of which you can stop for a cuppa or to reef the sails.
It's the same principle on a sloop rigged proa, but you have to remove and replace the headsail before and after the shunt.
More on shunting at Shunting — Harryproa https://www.harryproa.com/shunting

 

[tane]

"Gybing in big wind and waves is a white knuckle experience on a conventional boat."
broad (or even beam) reaching we'd be under foresail only on our monohulls, long before any maneuver would become "white knuckling". To avoid the foresail doing any monkey-business when going over to the other side (when the going is really heavy) we'd roll it so far up, that both sheets could be tight all the time while gybing.
When I think back to our Wharram: getting beam on to heavy seas would not have been our favourite position...crests hitting the windward hull & spray covering the whole boat being the lesser worry...

 

[rob denney]

"Gybing in big wind and waves is a white knuckle experience on a conventional boat."
broad (or even beam) reaching we'd be under foresail only on our monohulls, long before any maneuver would become "white knuckling".

Should have included "under full sail". Sorry.
Most mono cruisers would do the same as you, except those who don't like sailing slowly, rolling and being thrown around by the waves because they are underpowered, or who haven't lowered the main because they didn't expect the breeze to pick up. Which may not apply to your boat or you, but it does to a lot of others.
Could you describe your gybing technique under full sail in a full sail breeze and waves when the breeze increases and changes direction? It might interest the readers to compare it with the shunting description above.

To avoid the foresail doing any monkey-business when going over to the other side (when the going is really heavy) we'd roll it so far up, that both sheets could be tight all the time while gybing.

Smart call. What sails do you have up on the mono when you are sailing dead down wind in various breeze strengths?

When I think back to our Wharram: getting beam on to heavy seas would not have been our favourite position...crests hitting the windward hull & spray covering the whole boat being the lesser worry...

That's a problem with heavy, low freeboard, open deck boats. None of which apply to Harryproas.
How did it compare as a "preferred position" vs tacking in big winds and waves? Maybe describe this process as well for the proa people to compare with shunting? Thanks.

 

[Skip Johnson]

The first Madness broke both it's Newick rudders when side loads were applied because they were not easy to lift and didn't kick up. The second (in NZ) also had rudder troubles. Do you have any footage or tracks of them going upwind?

I could be wrong but I think it was Mubuli that had rudder issues.
That being said, I agree that dagger style rudders are very problematical if you ever sail in shoal water. I've had good luck so far with end mounted spring loaded rudders on my two most recent proas.

 

[Igor]

I could be wrong but I think it was Mubuli that had rudder issues.
That being said, I agree that dagger style rudders are very problematical if you ever sail in shoal water. I've had good luck so far with end mounted spring loaded rudders on my two most recent proas.

Yes, it was Mbuli. The first one built entered EC but dropped out soon after it bent both rudders hitting submerged objects.

 

[Skip Johnson]

Yes, it was Mbuli. The first one built entered EC but dropped out soon after it bent both rudders hitting submerged objects.

There were three proas entered in the EC that year, Mubuli, Carlos with a modified Dierking design and Chuck Lienweber and I in my P52. Mubuli was out early as you said with rudder problems, Carlos floundered and swamped later in Tampa Bay, it was rough that year. Chuck and I made it as far as Indian Key before we had to pull out with structural failure in the beam to float connections, my fault. Chief almost banned proas after that.

 

[Igor]

There were three proas entered in the EC that year, Mubuli, Carlos with a modified Dierking design and Chuck Lienweber and I in my P52. Mubuli was out early as you said with rudder problems, Carlos floundered and swamped later in Tampa Bay, it was rough that year. Chuck and I made it as far as Indian Key before we had to pull out with structural failure in the beam to float connections, my fault. Chief almost banned proas after that.

Nice to hear the first hand account! Have you got any photos of your proa?
Proas should definitely stay as a development class as it could definitely be made as safe as beach cats, if done properly.

 

[Skip Johnson]

P52's been gone for a long time, here's a good little clip that still floats around

One proa ACDC preceded P52 followed by Bionic Log, Nomad and Trivial Obsession.
Current craft QB (Questing Beast ) incorporates some of what I learned along the way. There's a little write up buried in the Texas 200 web site 2024 archives and a bit in Proafile.

 

[Igor]

Here are some videos od Madness in action:

 

[tane]

@rob denney:
broad reaching under foresail alone: we'd only strike the main in winds sufficiently strong so the boat was not underpowered/slow, of course (always had quite good passage times, btw...). The boat was not "rolling badly" or "being thrown around" (regarding the rolling: modern monohulls roll only very little, if sailarea is adeaquate, even downwind the rolling angle is astonishingly small. After 1 rtw on a cat & 2 & 1/3 on monos there are two situations, where we would prefer a cat's motion over a mono's: in a swelly anchorage & at sea in a swell in a dead calm.)
DDW: wing & wing, Genny poled out, no white knuckle that I remember: sheet main in as far as possible, slight course change on windvane until main comes over to other side, shift pole, sheet genny on new side. On rtw 2 & 3 we had 2 poles. On longer downwind stretches we'd install both poles with their own guys, topping lifts & downhauls, genny sheets through both endfittings. If a windshift would entail having both sails on the same side (i.e. had us deep reaching instead of running) we'd leave the (now windward) pole up, which enabled us to immediately change back to wing & wing if the wind would shift back. Small windshifts often had us change the sides of both main & genny: gybe main, sheet genny through the other pole. No white knuckles, all under windvane.
Tacking: easy & quick in practically any wind, easier on the more modern mono with fractional rig & smaller headsail as compared to the older of rtw 2 & 3 with smaller main, bigger genoa.

 

[rob denney]

Skip,
Cool boats, look forward to some sailing shots on the new one.
Igor,
My mistake about Mbuli, I thought it was the prototype Madness, not a smaller version. Madness is another cool boat. The rudders could be much improved on both. Madness does not appear to have a daggerboard? If so, this is 3 big steps in the right direction. Easier build, less drag on the windward hull and one less thing to hit and damage the boat.
No data/etc to support the 'fast, balanced, close winded boats'?
Tane,
Not quite what I asked for, but even so, it would be less effort on an unstayed rig. What design is your mono? Congratulations on being able to tack a Wharram "easy & quick" in "practically any wind" (and wave) conditions.

 

[Igor]

Skip,
Cool boats, look forward to some sailing shots on the new one.
Igor,
My mistake about Mbuli, I thought it was the prototype Madness, not a smaller version. Madness is another cool boat. The rudders could be much improved on both. Madness does not appear to have a daggerboard? If so, this is 3 big steps in the right direction. Easier build, less drag on the windward hull and one less thing to hit and damage the boat.
No data/etc to support the 'fast, balanced, close winded boats'?
Tane,
Not quite what I asked for, but even so, it would be less effort on an unstayed rig. What design is your mono? Congratulations on being able to tack a Wharram "easy & quick" in "practically any wind" (and wave) conditions.

There is a daggerboard in the ama. I have posted a few youtube links in the post above, you be the judge.

 

[Russell Brown]

No data/etc to support the 'fast, balanced, close winded boats'?

Is there data to support your side-hung rudders?

 

[tane]

Rob, the "quick & easy tacking" was on the monos! Of course tacking on the Wharram was with letting the jib/Genoa aback & therefore slowish! But of all the numerous tacks we made with it (rtw through Red Sea...) we only ever missed one, when we paid no attention.
Our monos were a Pouvreau 11.30 (design Gilles Vaton), an excellent, tough cruising boat (even if by todays standards accomodation & cockpit layout would be outdated) that served us well on 2 rtws, & an Elan 410 which we took from Brittany to Tahiti & sold there in 2020 (so now: no boat, but a 22'er is abuilding ). Much more modern & comfortable (but with all the drawbacks of a modern plastic boat: wheel steering, saildrive, swep-back spreaders & much harder motion upwind)
My original question regarding the shunting:
I remember running downwind to the Marquesas in fully developped trades with the Wharram: boat taking off down the wave-faces at up to 16kn (yes, 4 consecutive days with ~200nm runs! Not bad for the homebuilt, overloaded 34' cat, I think). How would the shunting on a proa being done in these conditions? Just head up until beam on?