Powering a barge like - Shottel like navigator vs V drive

Discussion in 'Pod Drives' started by yodani, Nov 29, 2015.

  1. yodani
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    Location: Danube Delta

    yodani Senior Member

    Hi there,

    I am trying to figure out if there will be feasible to power a floating hotel (basically a barge with flat bottom). There are two solutions that come to my mind:

    1. Use a Diesel outboard like the Schottel Navigator or Harbormaster.
    http://www.schottel.de/marine-propulsion/nav-navigator/
    http://www.schottel.de/fileadmin/data/images/pageimages/downloads/Typenübersicht_2014_11_final.pdf
    http://www.harbormastermarine.com/Outboard_Drive_Photos.htm

    2. Use a traditional shaft with a V drive

    The Harbormaster system seem to be exactly what I need but that comes down to the price as this systems tend to run in the 100.000$ range and that is a bit excessive for a 200hp drive... I hve no quote from them yet but will see.

    The V drive on the other hand can be about 35.000$ but poses some installation problems.

    I attach some rough drawings of what I have in mind.

    The boat is 29.5m (100ft) long, 5m- 16.4fb beam and a draft of about 60cm - 2ft .

    In the drawings the stern part has been lengthened as we need to add buoyancy and space for the engine installation. We can not go longer than 31.5 or 32m due to practical reasons.

    Do you have any suggestions on how to approach this?

    Thanks,

    Daniel
     

    Attached Files:

  2. yodani
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    yodani Senior Member

    Also forgot to mention that the advantage of the all in one outboard unit are:

    1. Easy to fit and maintain
    2. Air cooled so no water pumps and wet exhaust.
    3. Propeller can be trimmed and rotated giving a better manoeuvrability and also checked in case of strikes etc.
    4. Various engines can be mounted or easily replaced.

    The disadvantages... ? you name some..

    1. Pod drive not so efficient?
    2. Long term maintenance cost can be high?
    3. Belt drive on the Harbourmaster cand be a weak point
    4. Noisier than inboard but can be dealt with by insulating the case.
     
  3. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Remember the stern mounted diesel with drive has been made for decades.

    USED might bring the price of a pair down to under anything new.

    Look here , Boats & Harbors
    https://www.boats-and-harbors.com/
    , ...
    175 4th St, Crossville, TN 38555
    (931) 484-6100
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    View Digital Edition. Click Here. Tug Boat ..... Display ...
     
  4. yodani
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    yodani Senior Member

    Thanks Fred,

    I have found some second hand equipment and I am waiting for the quotation.
    https://www.dredgepoint.org/dredging-database/buy-sell/sykes-navigator-units-90-hp-each

    A bit heavy and underpowered. I 'don't think I can add two of those to the back of my boat as it will sink :) 7000kg for two units...

    This units from Sykes look interesting - http://www.sykesmarine.co.uk/50.html

    I found this auction for the Sykes 135hp units unused - 11 - 12000 UKPounds ... sounds tempting... http://www.bidspotter.co.uk/en-gb/a...0092/lot-46000dc6-95d5-4fdd-8180-a33000b299c9

    Do you have any first hand experience with this sort of equipment?

    Cheers,

    Daniel
     
  5. waikikin
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    waikikin Senior Member

  6. yodani
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    yodani Senior Member

    Hi Jeff,

    Unfortunately there is no reasonable way to do what you suggest as the modification for such setup is too complicated.

    As you can see from the pictures we already have the boats and the only modification would be to add two more meters to the existing boat and fit something in that space.

    A Rice nozzle is a great thing if you have a lifting pod that can be inspected. The boat operates often in shallow water and the propeller can suck things from the bottom like logs or the worst... tires. An overhaul for this boat will cost a lot just to get a tire out of the nozzle...

    A V drive could be feasible but I have no experience with this kind of setup. The angles and length for the power I need can prove impractical.

    Another thing to consider if buying second hand equipment is the certification as the engines would have to be certified so you buy the pod but end up changing the engine.

    Daniel
     
  7. yodani
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    yodani Senior Member

    Some data about the pods sold as surplus on the internet if someone is interested.

    Cheers,

    Daniel
     

    Attached Files:

  8. yodani
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    yodani Senior Member

  9. waikikin
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    waikikin Senior Member

    That's on a friends barge, it has twin rudder to each nozzle, the stern tubes are grease filled with mobil 222special. It all sits within 600mm cutaway aft on the barge. Design was specifically for shallow water with twin 6cylinder perkins diesels. Olds Engineering designed and supplied.
    Across the bay from where I work there was two stern paddle driven charter boats, quite large. They have bow thrusters to assist manoeuvring into berth. Apparently very reliable and low maintenance cost as bearings etc. above water, not sure how power is transmitted though.

    Jeff.
     
  10. slow fred
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    slow fred Junior Member

    Try 2 250 hp Outboards.
     
  11. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Good to see FAST FRED and slow fred, both contributing !
     
  12. yodani
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    yodani Senior Member

    Outboards are for kids... sorry.

    A 900mm diameter propeller with a 100mm shaft for a 150hp engine is what I have now for the tug boat. Do you think two outboards would last more than half a season?

    If I extend the aft with 3m I might be able to do something with a V-drive. Anyone here with experience in this direction?
     

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  13. FAST FRED
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Outboards are for kids... sorry.

    Outboards and even gas engines are for folks that can use their rated output , and do not require it 24/7.

    The longevity of the modern 4 stroke outboard is about 2500- 3500 hours of commercial service, till rebuild.

    While this might be 1/3 of a properly sized and installed diesel, it still may be more efficient.

    Diesels die and slobber when constantly underloaded , so the diesel is best where loads of power is needed 90+% of the time.

    The larger the diesel , the more common the short life from little load.

    Matching the engine to the vessel is more important than just thinking "diesel".

    24/7 operation Diesel is usually the way.

    Big push to depart a dock, little power to cruise for 4-8 hours , gas makes loads of sense , before we get into the steering ability of outboards.
     
  14. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Too slow for outboards, I'd say, assuming it operates at 10-12 knots or so.
     

  15. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "The boat is 29.5m (100ft) long, 5m- 16.4fb beam and a draft of about 60cm - 2ft ."

    Too slow for outboards, I'd say, assuming it operates at 10-12 knots or so."

    "Some OB can be had with better reduction gears and good low speed pushing props.

    10K is a SL of one about right , little wave making just a huge skin friction to overcome.

    What will be the weight of this beauty , and how many hours a day will it run?

    AS a WAG about 3 HP in the water,, per ton (2240 lbs) should be close.
     
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