power v sail

interesting stuff but none of it speaks well for those who's intentions are to retire on a liveaboard. I was hoping to go exploring on the inside passage in my later years but if things keep up the way they have I'm not so sure.

I'm a cheap bastad and refuse to go back into debt no mater how enticing it looks on the outside. I've shucked off the shackles of the bank forever and would rather live in a tent than go back to that misery, so this question of sail or power is as much about bringing a dream to fruition as it is about simple convenience, I am reminded of a guy who's dream recently sunk after he refused to listen to all advice and cobbled together what would become a valuable lesson in what not to do. His dock fees and inability to keep up with the Johns's so to speak was almost the death of him

if I was just daysailing then an old lobster smack type with a primitive rig and a small electric aux run off a generator and house bank would do nicely



Ted Brewer designed a really nice one



there is an excellent book named the sail-makers apprentice
wooden spars and mast with basic rigging
still probably out of my price rang though

 

Several of us seem to have the same goals: 1) very inexpensive total cost to build, own, and operate, 2) with cruising grounds being inland (canals, lakes, rivers, ICW, "the great loop"), coastal, and limited offshore with careful weather routing, and 3) potential for living aboard, or at least the ability to comfortably stay aboard for essentially unlimited periods of time.

In this context, yes the increasing cost of fuel matters.

Does it matter more than the difference between sail and power? In my opinion, no.

In order to actually achieve the above goals, the boat really needs to be a displacement boat that runs at a speed in knots equal to the square root of the waterline length (e.g., a "SL ratio of 1.0" which is much slower than "hull speed" aka SL ratio of 1.34).

To minimize total cost of ownership, the boat must be very light in total weight including structure, fuel, water, and all gear and systems. Light feeds into all of these things: light means less structure, less weight, less systems, and the suitably disciplined crew must carefully restrict gear.

Given the above drivers, the difference between a sailboat and powerboat becomes small. The powerboat is simply a sailboat without rigging, keel, ballast. Therefore, the powerboat is cheaper to buy and own. What about the cost of operation?

Let's consider an Olson 40 sailboat, against an Olson 40 without a rig and ballast.

The sailboat rigging (mast, winches, block and tackle, running rigging, standing rigging) will cost at least $40K. The sails will cost at least $40K. The keel and structure will cost at least $20K. So at least $100K is the sailing stuff beyond the cost of the boat (hull, deck, structure, furnishing, systems) which is (in this example) identical.

Under power, the powerboat will consume about HALF the fuel as the sailboat for displacement speeds, because the powerboat will weigh half as much (no rig, no ballast), and the powerboat will also have substantially less wind resistance (no rig).

The suit of sails will need to be replaced regularly. In my experience, typical sails last about 8 years or 4000 miles maximum. Cuben Fiber sails last much longer, but cost about double. Therefore, if the boat is hardly used you can figure on $5K per year ($40K in sails lasting 8 years).

Let's assume one really wants a boat to travel around during one's retirement, instead of just hanging in a marina. Therefore, let's assume we travel 3000 miles per year at 6 knots, so 500 hours. That's about $30K in sail replacement cost per year, or about $5000 per year at $10 per gallon of diesel.

So I still expect to build a powerboat, not a sailboat.

I'll carry sailboats as dinghies. Sailing a dinghy is always more fun that sailing a keel boat. And the dinghy sail can potentially be used as a steady-ing sail.

 

yup
thats about what my earlier analysis came up with except I calculated for similar living space rather than similar length

 

I like the option to have both, power and sail. Sometimes one is easier and sometimes the other is more desirable.

Imho, sails are overdesigned, hence expensive because mostly everyone wants the 'top performing' rig. When you go to motors there are certain 'requirements' to be better than the next. I think every one plays well into the salesman's hands, and in the end it turns out expensive.

I like the aft mast sail that has been discussed before, it's simple, easy to handle and more affordabe. I also like displacement hulls because they allow to work with small motors and these new small low pressure fuel injected two stroke motors are going to be the best thing since sliced bread.

If I want to sail I can, if I want to motor I can, why limit yourself.

Sure the price of fuel is a factor, we don't know how much worse it's going to become. If it goes really bad, then you can sail, perhaps just park the boat with the motor(s), cost you $2000 for the liter you used there

If fuel doesn't become rediculously expensive, then so what, you can still motor or sail.

 

i wonder if steam is a valid option

it could be set up to burn most anything with fire box inserts

 

can a Junk-rig be cheaper than store bought Western?

Could a Junk rig be safe, seaworthy and effective for far less, as well as be able to be locally or homemade out of low cost materials(maybe used sails)?


Click my handle for my gallery for the sort of utility sailing boat I might want cheap, workable sails for.



"...
Let's consider an Olson 40 sailboat, against an Olson 40 without a rig and ballast.

The sailboat rigging (mast, winches, block and tackle, running rigging, standing rigging) will cost at least $40K. The sails will cost at least $40K. The keel and structure will cost at least $20K. So at least $100K is the sailing stuff beyond the cost of the boat (hull, deck, structure, furnishing, systems) which is (in this example) identical.

Under power, the powerboat will consume about HALF the fuel as the sailboat for displacement speeds, because the powerboat will weigh half as much (no rig, no ballast), and the powerboat will also have substantially less wind resistance (no rig).

The suit of sails will need to be replaced regularly. In my experience, typical sails last about 8 years or 4000 miles maximum. Cuben Fiber sails last much longer, but cost about double. Therefore, if the boat is hardly used you can figure on $5K per year ($40K in sails lasting 8 years).

Let's assume one really wants a boat to travel around during one's retirement, instead of just hanging in a marina. Therefore, let's assume we travel 3000 miles per year at 6 knots, so 500 hours. That's about $30K in sail replacement cost per year, or about $5000 per year at $10 per gallon of diesel...."

 

There are free energy sources, but untill the fuel companies and governments stop getting rid of those that can make them we are stuffed. If you allow these energy sources to become available it is a huge threat to 'world economy'.

 

I looked into steam over on this thread

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/these-turbine-alternaters-easy-make-26738.html

I've pretty much explored every angle imaginable

 

This is why I would want a more traditionally designed sailboat. And to go with it the skill and patience of the folks that sailed them, working wind and tide to advantage. How much of the cost of boating is paying other people to do for you what you could do your self? When talking about sailing versus power, it isn't fair to consider only the last several decades of sailboat design, most of which were influenced and intended as weekend racers, part time cruisers.

If this were done none of the above cost would then apply.

 

Planned for this situation 25yr. ago bought my own waterfront deep anchorage property, smart move you say, well not really, the rich boys want my location so are building G.D. manshions all around me driving up the property taxes. So now in order to hang on to what i've got i'm almost 6 years beyond my planned retiremant and still working. Built my own 26ft. motorhome with a drive in toy hawler for my motorcycle so I could make more comfortable trips to Daytona Bike week and the Keys. The price of diesel has jumped so much I havent been able to go the past two winters. But I might just win on the water with this latest motorsailer build, she'll be a 70/30( 70 % sail/ 30% motor ) but I better hush as the ******** might just tax the wind.---Geo.

A yacht is not defined by the vessel but by the care and love of her owner

 

you need to learn how to collect and process your own waste motor oil from one of the local auto parts places, around here they offer oil disposal and keep a big *** tank of waste motor oil in the back. The place up the street from me collects about 2000 gallons a week. So I'm stoked on "fuel" and its free. Runs great in an IDI diesel engine and even has more power than diesel. You will need to filter the crap out of it and mix in either a little K-1 or bio-diesel but it really does run quieter and stronger than diesel any day. Only thing I did to my IDI international diesel 7.3 was put a fuel heater jacket around the fuel filter.

I haven't made a run yet on WMO but so far just around town I get slightly better millage than running on diesel. The danger is that the stuff is a lot thicker than diesel ( which is why you put a little bio-diesel in it ) so if you don't heat it up some it can be hard the high pressure fuel pump or electronic injectors. Which is why you want the IDI diesel 7.3, its bulletproof

I'm also adding a 200G tank in the bed with all the filter stuff so I can run hardwood back from Missouri when I need to, free fuel. I can fill up at one of the auto parts places in ST Joe's and end up saving about $600 on each load. Might mean you can make that trip your talking about but your going to have to either carry enough fuel for the whole trip or make arraignments for a fill up from somewhere along the way. Its really not that hard specially if you offer a C note to pick up say, there whole tank of waste fuel that they normally are happy to just give it away. Brings your fuel bill down to about zilch

OK end of hijacking
PM if you want more info on this

cheers

 

Youre wasting to much on sails. I run yachts and with care....a good quality spectra mainsail is indestructable. The one Im sailing with now has 40,000 miles , perhaps 500 hoists and is still in decent shape. Standing rigging...with care...gets 50,000 miles. I generally replace standing rigging and the mainsail at the same time. Headsails are high wear. Overlappers go fast, non overlappers degrade on the same life cycle as the main. Degradation is UV damage and chafe...particulary the stitching.

The major costs associated with yearly operation are repairing exterior UV damage on paint work, canvas work, teak decks, machinery maintence and dockage. Insurance and Dockage are big costs. You must have insurance or you cant move the boat and in many parts of the world the coastal geography makes it difficult to escape the dockage overhead.

 

Michael,

I've never seen a sail last anywhere near that long! I try to be careful, but you must be very good!

My experience is that they start to fail at inopportune times long before 40K miles. I do agree that UV and chafe are the things that kill fastest. Stitching and glue are what fail before the material itself, in most cases, in my experience. And I agree that headsails tend to fail far more frequently than mainsails.

I commend you for including standing rigging in your maintenance program. I am amazed at how rarely people address the age of the standing rigging from mast step up.

 

Hey, "Boston" anymore details on that motor-oil diesel fuel?

Exactly how much filtering is needed and what sort of filters?

How much regular or bio do you need to mix in and what are the symptoms if you don't do that?

How many miles have you run the stuff?

What are the chemical equations for regular diesel VS motor oil diesel?

I'd be deathly afraid some of that "back of the autoparts" oil has something some clown dumped that would kill the engine, like some cleaner or dissolved plastic. Yeah, I knew a guy who tried storing gas in plastic milk jugs and it started to dissolve the jugs, so he put the whole mess in an oil change pan and later to the oil disposal place mixed with some oil. I'd hate to think what a dissolved milk jug would do to an engine.

Maybe with all that free fuel someone could rig a backyard refinery.

 

hey Squid
why don't we have that conversation over on the biodiesel thread
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/diesel-engines/bio-diesel-35945.html?highlight=biodiesel