Power requirement for 10m canoe

[portacruise]

From OP, added my notes: "11 knots is a top speed, not cruising. This is being built to give tours on, so cruising speed is 8 knots per customer request. Customer is requesting no roof so that the tourists can take in the surroundings (side note: interestingly Torqeedo has made a boat for the locals and it was rejected by the tribe for being....too slow). This prevents a solar paneled roof option, so sufficient power needs to be stored on the vessel."

PC: If you are going to stay with Torquito, you might have to use more than one motor, to get the speed that is required. If the batteries are too heavy to be stored on board, there are plenty of land vehicle examples mentioned which suggest other ways that can be developed for the electric power to be applied to this River situation. An additional possibility that is being considered by some EV manufacturers is fast swappable battery packs for quick e-refueling, might be a consideration for this river project. One of the best aspects about electric fuel is that there are so many options to make the e-fuel (wind, solar, geothermal, nuclear, FF!, Etc), compared to the complex steps involved in getting and using fossil fuel. Everything might come to a stop if any FF step is interrupted for a period Beyond whatever storage capacity is available at the time.



"The vessel needs to ferry 10 passengers sitting in rows of 2 up and down river. Stem to stern length of 10m"

PC: Seems like careful balancing might be required each time with a traditional narrow/ unstable canoe shape, as everyone from children to adults don't come in standard sizes to sit side by side? How does it work with a Dugout canoe, is The Dugout wider, and more stable, than a normal canoe shape?

Hope this helps.

Ps. Another way to lower the battery weight in a 2 km boat shuttle situation is by "dump" charging a smaller battery pack between tours, which has been used by EV dragsters to quickly charge batteries between racing events.

 

[gonzo]

Dugouts are way more tippy than a canadian canoe. Also, there is no electric fuel. There is energy stored as electrical potential; like in batteries or capacitors. Calling it e-fuel is a misrepresentation and only leads to misconceptions from the general public.

 

[portacruise]

Thanks Gonzo, I agree that energy can be stored in capacitors as a volatile electrical potential. FWIW, I was taught that fossil fuels are a form of stored chemical energy and that is also true for batteries. At least I remember writing chemical equations for combustion and for battery charge and discharge...
Even though both might be considered chemical fuels, I get your drift about avoiding misunderstandings... So far I've learned that there is no such thing as "renewable" energy, it should be called renewable fuels? I'm thinking that instead of calling FF as politically correct "energy" companies, they should be called " chemical" companies? Alas, the terminology is already in extensive use, and not likely to change because of what a couple of scientists think, haha!

 

[gonzo]

energy can be stored in capacitors as a volatile electrical potential

There is no such thing as volatile electrical potential. Electrical potential is called Voltage. Volatile is a substance that easily evaporates at room temperature.

I'm thinking that instead of calling FF as politically correct "energy" companies, they should be called " chemical" companies?

Energy companies are those that transform energy from one form to another. For example, chemical into heat then into electricity (coal, gas, etc.), kinetic energy into electricity (wind, hydro, etc.), nuclear fission into heat into electricity and steam, among others. AS you said, energy can't be renewed, only transformed.

 

[portacruise]

There is no such thing as volatile electrical potential. Electrical potential is called Voltage. Volatile is a substance that easily evaporates at room temperature.

Energy companies are those that transform energy from one form to another. For example, chemical into heat then into electricity (coal, gas, etc.), kinetic energy into electricity (wind, hydro, etc.), nuclear fission into heat into electricity and steam, among others. AS you said, energy can't be renewed, only transformed.

Capacitors are not batteries, they have no chemical reactions associated with charge and discharge Cycles. Volatile was clearly used in context, caps can have almost instantaneous charge and discharge voltage curves, depending on how they're used.

Many years ago, some companies had "oil" or "petroleum" in their name, which many changed to "energy" wih the rise of the Environmental movement and accidents exposing some serious issues. I am thankful to Big Oil for giving the world a high standard of living! But oil is an extremely vulnerable depleting resource which cannot be recycled, and they or other businesses should be allowed to give everyone alternative choices for their energy needs, JMHO. Batteries currently being used have their own issues, but many of them can be mitigated through yet to be developed recycling, as was eventually done with lead. If not, there are different alternative Battery chemistries which don't use precious metals, some systems use ambient air to keep the weight down.

My guess is that many of you may know about these things already, please excuse if this is not interesting or helpful information.

 

[dustman]

A catamaran with a lower speed requirement would solve most of your problems, would be much easier to design and construct, and would be more realistic to power with electric propulsion.

I appreciate the desire to go electric, but as someone who went through the whole process of trying to design an all electric boat I can say that there are some very real limitations, especially when cost is a consideration. The main conclusion was that I needed to considerably reduce my speed requirements.

 

[gonzo]

Portacruise, you should probably start your own thread to discuss political and other issues. This is about a contract for a 30 foot canoe with a target top speed of 11 knots and powered by an electric motor.

 

[portacruise]

I read plenty of off topic, silly, inaccurate, sarcastic, and political comments on this and other postings besides mine, and including some of yours, Gonzo.. Who cares, we are all flawed human beings during stressful times, and might have other distracting things happening, Plus we can't be expected to express ourselves perfectly every time! I am just thankful for the many useful comments that you and others have posted which have helped on my various projects!

As regards the OP topic, I think that having some kind of fast charge capabilities at one or both ends of the 2 km route would allow for much smaller fast charging battery weight on board, and possibly make the project viable. The fast charging stations might consist of stationary battery Banks not necessarily made from expensive lithium, (maybe car batteries run at shallow cycles which can be recycled) . The battery Banks could be charged by solar, wind, or a trickle of grid power, depending on the budget available. Whether this project truely be green, not my business, just some out of the box ideas that might help...

 

[gonzo]

Solar is not very good in the Amazon forest because of the shade. Wind is also a poor choice because of the trees. They are off the grid.

 

[portacruise]

Thanks for your great commentary, Gonzo!
What do you think about going higher up to catch the solar and or wind?
It would have to be done somewhere where there's very few or no trees, like the middle of the river, and as cheaply as possible. That might mean stringing simple structural cables across the narrowest part of the river (Far Away From Shadows) that allows a solar day of exposure, from a structurally sound position at the top or middle of trees, where they don't block boats. Something like simple zip lines, using the trees would be cheaper than erecting Towers; and the solar panels on a solid base could be attached to parallel cables (avoids the water debris issues).. Extension poles might be strapped to the tallest existing trees that produce a structurally solid Tower for the windmills with stabilizing cables fastened to other nearby trees? Just some possible ideas, but it may be more trouble than it's worth, haha? There's also the possibility of water Mills producing Electric Power from the closest fast flowing Rapids area, if conditions allow for it..

Ps. Alternative to solar panels high up is solar panels floating on simple cheap log rafts, anchored in very wide river sections. But debris might be an issue, unless they can somehow be placed away from their known paths.

 

[gonzo]

It all seems more intrusive and destructive to the environment than running a generator. For a "carbon neutral" generator a gasogen system would work.

 

[portacruise]

Yes, I see how the view would be affected, haha! Thanks, Gonzo!

With big gas generators for fast charging, there's a noise Factor as well as the fumes, affecting the ambiance. But I guess that can be minimized depending on the particular brand that is used.

I wonder if there might be a wind tunnel effect to deal with at times, if the river banks are lined with tall trees..
I've experienced something like that when shear walls are present, especially in narrow sections with sheer Rock walls. Control and forward propulsion can be severely affected, for my situations anyway.

 

[gonzo]

The generators don't need to be too big. A 5 Kw at most. A hospital grade muffler will keep noise to a minimum.

 

[seandepagnier]

At 20 knots speed with 40 mile range exceeds the requirements requested here.

The candela boat in sweden:
Candela - Hydrofoiling Electric Boats - The world's only fast and long-range electric boat. https://candela.com/

It should be possible to swap batteries but charge time is only 3-4 hours.

As far as solar near the equator.. the potential is quite good, especially in waterways. If you can see the water from satellite imagery then a clear path to the sky exists.