Possible Class of Small Ocean Racing Sail boat

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by sharpii2, Jun 7, 2004.

  1. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Hi
    Just thought I would post this idea I've had for a new class of ocean racing sailboat. In part, it is a reaction to the Mini Class. It is intended to be less expensive and perhaps more user friendly. Ultimate seaworthiness in a small size is also an objective. So here goes...

    1 x 19 CLASS

    Length Open.
    Beam Open.
    Draft 1.00 meter.
    Sail Area 19.00 square meters*
    Displ. Open**
    Stability Self-Rescuing*** from a 180 degree Capsize.
    or
    Having a Righting Arm = to 2/5 Center of Area Height
    of the Sail Plan, measured from the water, without
    moveable Ballast.

    * Maximum Sail Area with largest sails set.

    ** Enough to support 455kg of payload and a 7.68kg/sm
    minimum Hull, Deck, and Cabin weight.

    *** Able to be righted by the skipper alone with no outside
    help within 5 minutes.

    So there it is. What do you all think of it?

    sharpii
     
  2. AggieBoater
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    AggieBoater Junior Member

    Go for a Transat 6.5meter. Somewhat affordable if you don't go the class that allows carbon fiber hulls. There's already a proven design in place, and a nice support system for running the race. Plus due to the already large following you can class race it. Otherwise you may spend lots of time and money building a boat that you'd evently selling to someone who would be stuck PHRF racing it later on.
     
  3. mackid068
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    mackid068 Semi-Newbie Posts Often

    Sounds like a cool idea. PHRF isn't that bad, though. As a lightweight dinghy sailor, I DO like the idea of righting alone without help, sounds really cool.
     
  4. Shife
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    Shife Anarchist

    Re-read his post Aggie. A 6.5 is a Mini. He's looking for a alternative design.
     
  5. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    On that you are right.

    I have nothing against the Mini's.

    I think, with vigilant, seasoned, proffessional skippers, powerful and expensive, redunant auto pilot gear (that is seen as replaceable after every race), and ever watchful race committees, they are sea worthy enough.

    As an analogy, I would consider them an entry level grande prix class, much like open wheel race cars. What I had in mind is something like a nautical version of NASCAR racers. On the outside they look like ordinary cars. On the inside they are nothing like them.

    The idea being, if there were well publicized races in boats that at least looked like more wholesome (moderate draft, moderate beam, moderate ballast, and more common construction materials) boats, it would be easier to market such boats to the general public who really need them.

    I do not know if my posted suggestion could acomplish that goal, but that was my intention.

    Thanks for the interest.

    Bob
     
  6. AggieBoater
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    AggieBoater Junior Member

    I'm sorry for the confusion. I didin't realize that the two names were for the same boat. There is only one well used Transat 6.5 in my part of the country. I've just gotten my first good close up look at the boats last month. So I've heard of the mini class, but thought it may be something different. With what you've added it makes things clearer.

    Question, You listed length as "Open," Most class boats have a fixed design to keep competitors and firms from spending a million dollars on engineering to find a better design than the competition. Are you planing open length for the class, or just until a design is established?
     
  7. cmagnan
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    cmagnan New Member

    Personally, I think the optimum design (maximum mileage from minimum sail area, ignoring things like cost - a la America's Cup) sounds like a folding, rightable (it can be done, especially once folded) trimaran with an autogyro or C Class cat style wing rig.

    The reality is that whatever you restrict can, if taken to extremes, lead to the evolution of a correspondingly extreme craft which may not resemble what the rule-maker had in mind at all and with a price tag like a Formula 1 car. One of the problems of the C class cats (25 ft LOA) is that the cost of a serious campaiggn for what was once a relatively cheap, slightly overgrown beach cat is now starting to approach th e milloin dollar mark. (See fairly recent articles about the Little America's Cup.)

    In the AYRS we have played about with this and have offered a trophy (in this case just for inshore racing, but the concept could be applied more generally) for a class in which only LOA is restricted (to 6.1m, or just over 20ft) as a means of keeping the craft beachcat sized and hopefully restrict costs, though to some extent the above comment on costs still potentially applies. The only restriction on rig size is the race location - Worthing Yacht Club on the exposed coast of the English Channel where the weather and sea conditions are notoriously unpredictable.

    This was done to stimulate design and discussion and was conceived of as a quick and dirty way of getting the ball rolling while issues regarding the optimum set of restrictions, or lack thereof, were thrashed out.

    If no one builds a "special" to compete, the trophy simply becomes a line honours prize for the local beachcat hotshots, who set a useful benchmark for any experimental craft. (Do hydrofoilers go faster around a course which includes windward legs?)

    It is hoped that this will eventually lead to an international competition whether in coastal or ocean going conditions) in which developmental craft will be encouraged. I suggest that some sort of restriction on rig (area or mast height?) as well as LOA would be necessary, but things like number of hulls, materials, hydrofoils should be unrestricted to allow innovation and see what works best.

    Any thoughts, anyone?

    -Charles Magnan
     
  8. Seafarer24
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    Seafarer24 Sunset Chaser

    This sounds surprisingly similar to the 18sq. class of catamarans...
     
  9. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I left the Length and Beam open, because, with the restriction on minimum hull (per surface area) weight, draft, minimum payload capacity, and absolute sail area, would pretty much paint the designer in a corner that quick tech fixes like carbon fiber bulb keels that extend to China and and eggshell foam/balsa cored carbon hulls can't get him out of.

    You can make a bigger hull, but it most certainly will weigh more.
    You can make a longer narrower hull, but that may force you to go to a more divided rig to get the CA low enough for the hull (which can only be a meter deep, including dagger boards and center boards) to stand up to.
    You can make a smaller hull which will probably be lighter for the 19sm you have to push it, but your top speed may end up restricted (the required payload would mean a higher DL which would never plane and probably never surf)

    The hope is, and it is a leap of faith, is that some boats will win in some conditions and do poorly in others. And since this class would be about open ocean racing (and different courses), the conditions will be much harder to control or predict than most inshore races like the America's Cup or the Little America's cup.

    I can imagine some hybrid between a keel mono and a single or double outrigger (with easily flooded floats) could come on the scene, but the cost, complexity and reliability issues could make it a sometime winner and frequent retirer. Remember, if its to be a multi, its going to have to have a very low rig. Good in blowing conditons but not so good in the light stuff. Even so, it could become the dominate type. If thats the case, I would welcome it. It would most certainly be a more sea worthy type than your typical anything for speed multi.

    I would expect the most popular choice would be a ballasted mono. The lengths (in ft) could be from the high teens and high twenties with most people settling somewhere in between. The sail rig choice would be anyones guess, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of high roached, rigid, fractional sloops as well as modern gaffers and ballanced lugs.

    My fervent hope is to have a wide diversity of design strategies that can all race together with each having at least a reasonable chance of winning.

    Maybe we ought to have a game where everyone who comes to this thread tries to predict the design strategy most likely to win under these rules.

    Bob

    P.S. I may have made a mistake in not specifying a minimum cabin volume. I have noticed that they did that with the Mini's. I would especialy appreciate anyone pointing out any other possible glaring loopholes.
     
  10. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I can see where this could lead to. A fifteen foot beam, a forty foot tall rig, and carbon everything.
    In stronger winds, it would simply go faster (until it fell apart). And anyone not brazen enough to ride this dragon would simply be called chicken.

    I think you need to restrict mast height (perhaps to 9m) and have minimum hull surface weight reqirements (adequate for more affordable materials). And you should require it to start its race from the beach.

    But I think you are on to something.

    Bob
     
  11. Raggi_Thor
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    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    There is always that problem with rules, people want to make the fastest boat within the rules. Looka at the Scandinavian SK22 and SK30 where the rule is simply maximum sail area. The boats became very long and slender with very tall masts.
     
  12. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Come all ye sea lawyers.

    Dear thor:

    Actually, I had the 'square meter' classes in mind when I thought this thing up. I read about them in Wooden Boat magazine. To my taste, they are very elegant and my guess is that they are sea worthy as well.

    The idea of this new class is not neccesarily to make the least expensive racer. One Design does a much more effective job at that. But to get away from some of the design trends I see today that I think are inelegant and even unhealthy.

    I know full well that boats designed to this proposed rule will likely have lead keels (spent uranium should be banned. For everything!) and carbon masts. But I do expect the limited draft could really put a damper on really tall rigs
    especially for very long hulls where much of the weight buget (to keep the S/D as high as possible) would be taken up making the hull itself.

    My understanding is that tall rigs are really most effective to windward (higher aspect ratio) and would have to be reefed sooner ( because of high CA) when the wind starts to blow. I don't know if the 'square meter' classes limited total sail area or just working sail area.

    If you know Thor, please let me know.

    If the latter is the case, bigger light air sails can be set on taller masts. This is, of course, not an option under my proposed rule where every square cm of sail area actually set will be counted.

    I would not be surprised to see taller rigs dominate this proposed class. Nore would I be surprised to see someone try to make a 19sm kite. There is nothing in my proposed rule that would prevent that. And, indeed, maybe it should be tried.

    My main reason for limiting sail area is is to encourage design elegance and finness (hulls that are easily driven and easily controlled) over brute power and brute strength engineering, or, failing that, force designers to come up with entirely new distortions and abuses of the system (do they all have law degrees? :) ). The present ones are getting boring.

    As usual, I invite anyone comming to this thread to come up with the most flagrant distortion and/or abuse of this proposed rule they possibly can. The more flagrant the better!

    The fold up tri was a great try. I loved it.

    Bob
     
  13. Raggi_Thor
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    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    If you read swedish:
    http://www.snabelslash.com/bo/www.sk22.nu/index.asp?m=3&trail=26
    "Skärgårdskryssarregel. 22 står för segelarean i
    kryss-stället, beräknat på internationell mätning, dvs 85% av
    förtriangeln. Försegelarean bakom masten är fri, så dom flesta båtarna
    har totalt 32-35 kvm i kryss-stället."

    Summary: 22 is the working sail area where the foresail (jib/genua) is measured to 85% of the fore triangle. The area behind the mast is "free", so the real sail area (to windward) is 32 to 35 m2.

    I don't know the size of the spinnaker.

    The rules for the SK22 includes minimum freebord. The length has been up to 13 meters, but now 12x2 meters is normal.

    Some info in english:
    http://www.sskf.se/info/engindex.htm

    Link to the rules:
    http://www.sskf.se/regeln/IntroductionToRuleEn.htm
     
  14. Raggi_Thor
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    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    I read in the "rules outline" that spinnaker area is free....
     

  15. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    Love the sail-area restriction idea. The International Canoes and the old German dinghies (Z class etc) of the '20s and '30s were like the dinghy version of square metre boats (long slim hulls, small(ish) efficient rigs) and they were for many years the fastest of all dinghies.

    Cmagnan, about "In the AYRS we have played about with this and have offered a trophy (in this case just for inshore racing, but the concept could be applied more generally) for a class in which only LOA is restricted (to 6.1m, or just over 20ft) as a means of keeping the craft beachcat sized and hopefully restrict costs, though to some extent the above comment on costs still potentially applies."

    Sorry, but what's stopping someone coming out with a 20' version of a C Class with spinnaker, or a wing-masted B Class-style boat with assy, and won't they be extremely expensive? The unrestricted-rig 18' skiff became stupidly expensive; both on an absolute basis and on a speed-for-knots basis. Not only that, they really didn't lead development anywhere near as much as many people think - the smaller and restricted-rig skiffs were much more innovative.
     
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