Pocket Carrack home build…little help please

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Josh Smith, Feb 12, 2022.

  1. Josh Smith
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    Josh Smith Junior Member

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  2. Waterwitch
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    Waterwitch Senior Member

    Try the search term brigantine, Bolger drew a mini one as other designers have over the years.
     
  3. bajansailor
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    The Little Brig Sailing Trust in England used to have two wonderful 'little brigs' all of 30' long - they might be useful reference material for your pirate ship?
    The Little Brig Sailing Trust - Home http://www.littlebrig.org/

    Collars are the folk who built the spars for the Little Brigs -
    Little Brig Sailing Trust - Collars http://collars.co.uk/uk_galaxy/news/article/33/little_brig_sailing_trust

    Here is a brief video of TS Bob Allen under power -


    Little Brigs.jpg

    TS Caroline Allen.jpg

    Starting with a concept like this, you could probably build up a forecastle and an aft castle for your pirate ship - and don't discount the merits of square rig, vs your proposed lateen sails.

    The Little Brigs were designed by Colin Mudie who is well known for his various 'big' tall ship designs -
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Mudie

    He also designed the replica of John Cabot's Matthew, which I think is probably a larger version of what Josh has in mind.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_(ship)#Replica

    Matthew caravel designed by Colin Mudie.jpg

    Here is a nice broadside view of the Matthew on Flickr -
    The Mathew (Ship) https://www.flickr.com/photos/jtite/6207869107

    Here is a long thread on the BDF from 8 years ago by a gentleman with similar ambitions to build a pirate ship - there is a lovely design for a 20' brig by the late (and much missed) PAR of this Forum on page 4, as per the drawing below.
    construction plan opinions needed for my proposed boat project https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/construction-plan-opinions-needed-for-my-proposed-boat-project.48503/

    PAR 20' brig.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2022
  4. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    That's good news.
     
  5. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Caracks were square sail ships, with a square main, a square bowsprit sail, and a Lateen mizzen, at a minimum. They were basically sailing siege towers with cannons.

    I once sketched a pdracer with this rig. If I were more affluent and lived on the water, I would build one. It would be very challenging to sail upwind. A true test of a sailor worth his salt. Aaarh.

    A somewhat cut down version of a carrack was a caravel. It had roughly the same hull shape, but no fore or aft castles. It generally had at least two Lateen sails and mabe a square bowsprit sail.

    This might be closer to what you have in mind. The main can be boomless and set always on the same side of the mast. Its lower yard can have a tether line which attaches to the mast, which will make this long spar easier to control. Then, you may be able to get away with just two sheet lines.

    The smaller mizzen can have a boom, and then need only one sheet line. The main can furl up to its yard by use of brails. The mizzen can furl by simply lowering its yard into some lazy jacks.

    The square sail at the end of the bowsprit could be used only when sailing down wind, and when there are at least two people on board. It can ride on a ring on the bowsprit. Even then, it will need six lines to control it.

    Its windward performance will be more like a close reach than a tack on a more modern sailboat.

    It should be noted that ships of that era did not have a great deal of sail area for their displacement. And this boat would be no exception.

    It can have a poop deck and a raised fore deck to complete the look.
     
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  6. waterbear
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    waterbear Junior Member

    Phil bolger is about as close as you get to a specialist in trailerable carracks, unfortunately he passed on a few years ago. Bolger probably designed hundreds of trailerable traditional sailing craft and may actually have something close to what you want. Plans are still available in his books and through his widow at phil bolger & friends. He also designed the 135ft HMS surprise replica used in the movie master and commander.

    As tansl said, you don't need a specialist, just someone who is competent and interested in your project. Consider jay benford or tad roberts, they might be interested in a project like this. Benford seems to specialize in ridiculously tall powerboats, but he designs sailboats as well, so might be a good fit.

    As an example, here's Bolgers 32x9 brigantine, as suggested by waterwitch.

    20220214_205531.jpg

    And the 22 ft "grandpa's pirate ship"

    20220214_215047.jpg
     
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  7. Waterwitch
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    Waterwitch Senior Member

  8. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I have recently been playing around with some ideas about a vessel which would come close to meeting Josh's vision.

    I started out with the following SOR:

    1.) It had to look like something out of the 15th century. Not necessarily historically accurate, but at least historically suggestive.
    2.) It had to be a real sailboat, meaning it had to be able to sail up wind.
    3.) It had to be able to sailed by no more than two effective crew.
    4.) It had to have some of the handling characteristics of a vessel of that period. Giving it a modern fin keel or center board would certainly work, but it would be too much like cheating.
    5.) It had to be small enough and light enough to be legally trailerable, in most states without special permits, and without a commercial sized tow vehical.
    6.) It had to be able to handle reasonable sea conditions.
    7.) It had to have a place for atleast one scaled down cannon.
    8.) It had to be able to sleep at least four people overnight, or for maybe a weekend.
    9.) It had to be buildable in a reasonable amount of time, say two years full time, by a skilled do-it-yourselfer.

    This is what I came up with:

    (see thumbnails below)

    I drew a faceted construction, as I find this as a quick, reasonably accurate way to draw a preliminary design. I can find the displacement, get a reasonable idea of the hull shape and other dimensions.

    It has two masts and one long bowsprit. Each of these handles just one yard. The last two, the main and the mizzon mast, carry Latteen sails. The bow sprit will carry a square sail at the end of it. This sail, of about 32 sf, will be used only when sailing down wind.

    The masts are really free standing. The ratlines drawn are only for climbing on (a real crows nest would be too detrimental to the boat's stability, so they are not in this design). They are to be attached to the hull with lanyards rather than turnbuckles. This is so they can be quickly loosened on the lee side when sailing. I found that the Latteen sails had to be boomless, or they would interfere with the ratlines. These Latteen sails stay on the same side of the masts on both tacks. The 141 sf mainsail and the 84 sf mizzon both have check lines, which attach to the mast, which keeps them peaked up at the correct angle. (Vessels of that period did not have this. But they had much larger crews). All three sails furl by the use of brails. The Latten yards will likely not have halyards

    The full length keel will not allow quick maneuvering. In fact, it may require the main sail to be held back when changing tacks. A 17 ft sailboat I once owned required me to do this with the jib. But, once I learned this technique, I found I could get this otherwise reluctant boat to change tacks quickly.

    The hull displaces maybe half of what a vesself of that size and period probably would. This allows a smaller, more manageable rig, and a much more doable tow weight. The keel has somewhat more area to make up for this. The rudder is controlled by a quadrant, which is controlled either by a ship's wheel (several centuries out of its period) or a whipstaff (which was more likely within it). I chose this, rather than a tiller, to allow more space in the stern castle, where I hope to be able to fit in four bunks. I hope to be able to fit two more in the fore castle.

    I thought of having a self-bailing cockpit, but gave up on it for the following reasons:

    1.) It would keep the crew weight too high (there could be as many as eight people on board).
    2.) it would have to be much narrower than the boat to work effectively.
    3.) the crew would be much more visible, making the boat look like a toy.
    4.) it would require companion ways, rather than doors for the castles

    So, yes, this is effectively a high-sided, open boat, with an 1800 lb ballast keel. I have thought of making the doors, that lead into the castles, water tight. Closing them would presumably keep the boat from sinking, if it were somehow swamped. The cannon would sit on an elevated platform, to be at the correct height. This platform would be a box in which batteries, which powered the two auxhiliary moters, would be housed in. These two motors would sit in wells on either side of the helm.

    Anyway, this is what I came up with. I think it would work reasonably well, and not take more than two hours to set up.

    Piirat pro.png Piirat plan.png Piirat sek.png
     
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  9. Josh Smith
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    Josh Smith Junior Member

  10. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    The article was a very read. Thank you.
     
  11. Waterwitch
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    Waterwitch Senior Member

  12. Josh Smith
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    Josh Smith Junior Member

    The Indeavor reconstruction should give enough info for just about anyone to understand the old timey craft from the Iberian carracks and caravels after the mid 1400s through to the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Historically, what sharpii drew up and what we were looking at is closest to the Dutch hoy or the Portuguese caravel, with the Indeavor giving really good numbers for scaling the size of the boat: 3:1 length to beam, 2:1 beam to deck height above keel including structural members, and a lot of info on the trig and geometry for historically accurate hull shape and form. So basically if I want headroom for The Woman, we can do it with a 36footer and 12’ of beam. For me to have full standing headroom under the deck, it needs to be a 40footer with 13’beam. If we are more reasonable and agree to live with less headroom, we can have it down to what amounts to full seated headroom at 4’9” and use the space for berths, equipment, and storage and create headroom in the castles fore and aft.

    It seems that at least for a few hundred years, something like sharpii’s drawing was considered seaworthy for up to twelve crew across the North Atlantic.
     
  13. bajansailor
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

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  14. rnlock
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    rnlock Senior Member

    I realize this is an old thread, but it's interesting. Or, at least it is as long as I'm supposed to be doing something else.

    If I was the OP, I'd be taking a good, hard look at nautical charts to see how deep the draft can be without restricting movement too much. I'd also be taking a good look at my financial resources, as this project could end up being fantastically expensive.

    I wouldn't assume that foam cored fiberglass is the only light way to go. Fiberglass is heavy and floppy, which the foam helps make up for. However, I suspect that, with careful design, plywood or strip planking with light wood, protected by very light fiberglass, could also compete on weight. For the bottom, straight fiberglass construction might make sense, because this vessel will need weight down low. Especially if the fantastically deep centerboard turns out to be impractical.

    Without that super deep board, a LOT of ballast will be needed. Maybe batteries to run a silent electric motor so that the OP can pretend to sail upwind. Latteen sails, as discussed, might also make upwind sailing easier to fake. I wonder what kind of tow vehicle would be required?

    This project might be more feasible in a smaller size, but then there may not be enough people to pull all the strings. If it was mine, I would be trying to figure out which rig required the least work to use. Particularly since the whole rig will have to be set up and taken down when trailering.

    It might be easier to deal with something resembling the Onrust, which has much simpler rigging. Particularly if the mast was made free standing. https://www.theonrust.com/uploads/2/5/8/6/25860210/6321756.jpg
    Just 2 or 3 sails, 3 halyards, a snotter, and 3 sheets, if I'm not mistaken. It could probably even be single handed.

    It might be good to look through books like Chappelle's American Sailing Ships, to see what's historical, though I realize that it covers ships much more recent than carracks. As it turns out, privateers often used ships that were pretty fast that would be a base for a boat that sailed much better than a carrack.

    Anyway, all such choices would have to appeal to the OP.

    Yet another suggestion is to warm up by making something like a Brick, with some flotation chambers added, which would also beef up the gunwhales, possibly eliminating that pesky creaking sound. It sails quite well with as many as 4 adults on board. The grandchildren could have a chance to go sailing while they were still children. I've owned one. My friend's kids loved it, but they didn't like the boats he did. The Brick even goes upwind reasonably well. Better with a NACA 0012 dagger/leeboard and rudder, I'm sure.
    https://sites.google.com/site/molepages/brick16_lightair.jpg
     

  15. clmanges
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    clmanges Senior Member

    As long as we're going there, scroll down to the Flying Frog on this page:
    Puddle Duck Racers with Cabins https://pdracer.com/hull-config/cabin/
     
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