Pocket Carrack home build…little help please

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Josh Smith, Feb 12, 2022.

  1. Josh Smith
    Joined: Feb 2022
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    Location: Midland, Texas

    Josh Smith Junior Member

    Asking for a lead to a designer who specializes in plans for fiberglass foam sandwich construction on a pocket carrack design from the trailer up

    trailerable, 8’4” beam, 25’ waterline length, 32’ from fore peak (minus bowsprit) to the stern end of the aft castle; 12’ total vessel height plus 1’ on trailer leaving it 1’ under legal trailer limits. Long shaft outboard masked in the aft rudder assembly; berths and heads (one wet one dry) for two couples plus grandkids in hammocks. Classic carrack/caravel look meant for manual sailing using manual vertical capstan and lateen sails mounted on four masts.

    yes, working crow’s nest. Yes, working small cannon. Yes, ship’s bell. And yes, lots and lots of road miles broken up by grand baby laughter and sunburns and walking the plank.

    it’s a ridiculous combination of a lake and protected waters vessel weekender, an eye popping RV, and a backyard pirate ship play set for the grandbabies

    basically it’s a fiberglass pirate ship with wood veneer exterior so my wife and I can travel to our grandkids, since there are lakes near each of their families, plus inland water sailing around Corpus Christi and Port Aransas inside of the barrier islands at the Gulf

    If you know of a designer who fits the bill for this sort of thing, that’s really what we’re looking for. We appreciate the help.
     
  2. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    A designer specializing in this is not going to be easy to find. Even if it is not specialized, it will be difficult to find it. Now, if you settle for someone who can design what you have in mind, with sufficient guarantees that you, your wife, and your grandchildren can safely navigate the device, that may be easier to find (It will not be cheap, in any case).
     
  3. bajansailor
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

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  4. Josh Smith
    Joined: Feb 2022
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    Josh Smith Junior Member

    This rings of wisdom, and usually when that happens I just need to take some time to truly try and get it. Thank you for the guidance in your reply.

    The expense is welcome here. We’ve reached a point where we can splurge a little to make the “getting out on the water” happen.
     
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  5. Josh Smith
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    Josh Smith Junior Member

    Both of those appear to be good solid designs. The ideas my wife and I are toying with are really a LOT more freeboard, way taller and more ridiculous to the point of being annoying to trailer and transport on a windy day. It’s the old classic super tall fore and aft castle Portuguese carrack profile shrunk down to something of a spectacle that can still sail.

    I will take a closer look at the designs and see if a conversion actually makes a lot more sense than a new hull. As with every suggestion, I hope you understand how much we appreciate your contributions.
     
  6. bajansailor
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    I should have googled Carracks first - Wiki seems to give a good description of them here -
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrack

    Some thoughts re your proposed statement of requirements (SOR) :
    You mention 32' on deck, 8'4" beam, and 25' waterline - that is pretty much similar to the Atlantic Clipper, except that her beam is 9'6".
    The Barbican 33 hull is almost identical to the Atlantic Clipper, but with a sloop rig, aft cockpit and no bowsprit -
    SailboatData.com - BARBICAN 33 Sailboat https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/barbican-33
    And that extra 14" of beam (compared to your 8'4") will make a huge difference to the accommodation and (especially) to the stability.
    Do you really need FOUR masts?
    The Wiki article mentions that the Carracks generally had 3 or 4 masts, but all of the illustrations just show 3 masts.

    You mention a total vessel height of 12' - I presume that this is from the base of the keel to the top of the aft castle - this is an awful lot really.
    Even with ballast in the keel, I would be worried about the stability, what with adults in the cockpit, probably kids keeping look out up on the aft castle, the weight of 3 (or even 4) masts, not to mention that working crow's nest (How high up? For kids only?).

    Can you maybe sketch out some rough sketches of what you have in mind please?
     
  7. Josh Smith
    Joined: Feb 2022
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    Josh Smith Junior Member

    Yes I have several sketches. You are almost certainly correct that there will likely only be three masts on a craft with this waterline length, but man wouldn’t it be cool to be in a boat that has a bona fide bona-venture?

    This may actually be the only time someone gets on here where sailing performance is not a consideration. V/hull could actually be 3-4kn and it wouldn’t make one bit of difference. Because: pirate ship! The side relief shows what will eventually be a swing-down daggerboard with a bulbous lead attachment, probably in the 8–10’ range in depth to address the stability concern of a trailerable (8’-6” beam or less) sailboat on the water. I also had in mind the switch to fiberglass with wood veneer over on weight considerations and bringing up the ballast ratio above 0.45 or maybe even 0.50.

    Naturally topsides on the aft castle and the fore would be limited to kids only but you are right - a substantial effort must be made for safety’s sake to keep weight low down. To trailer and also to take on the passengers and equipment, the hull we had sketched was just a rounded flat-bottom - again with the massive daggerboard weight to keep her vertical and above the water.

    This morning’s sketch is very ambitious on sail area, mainly because we care for an Alzheimer’s patient and I just went crazy on the lateen sizes as a trip to fantasy land.

    Between everyone commenting and the actual ultimate architect’s/designer’s prowess, I feel that this is a jumping off place for something that will be safe and fun to sail. Feel free to giggle or chortle, because if these threads aren’t fun, then what’s the point?

    Thanks again for contributing.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Josh Smith
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    Josh Smith Junior Member

    I feel that to leave that there might invite some considerations that we may have already solved, so maybe a little more detail is in order. The lateens are reversible here as the masts are unstayed. Sail area can quickly be added or reduced by the system of colored brailing lines (that’s the bastardized ROYGBIV to the right on the sketch that puts green to starboard where it belongs). Foresails are probably gone as is the square on the bowsprit. The masts themselves are a take on a tabernacle system where they can be stood down on a series of cradles fore and aft for trailering. Rudder and long shaft outboard have to be shipped for trailering. In all reality, since sailing performance isn’t the goal, the sail plan can be reduced to 200-300sq ft and still give my kids and their kids a working sailboat feel. Even the selection of lateens reduces weight and increases safety by eliminating the boom while giving a bonus to windward ability over square sails. And the wet head in the sketch at C6 originally was a pilot house and head over the owner stateroom, so grownups needn’t venture waaayyy up on top of the aft castle to steer. Not shown are the removable rails fore and aft to keep the ankle biters from falling into the drink.

    All that said, enjoy and have a good laugh.
     
  9. bajansailor
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    I had to save a copy of your sketch and then blow it up to 200% so that I could see it properly - here is a copy, but other readers will probably still have to save it to blow it up to see it.

    Pirate ship sketch.jpeg

    "I feel that this is a jumping off place for something that will be safe and fun to sail."
    I am having doubts about this, even if you have a massive daggerboard with a heavy bulb on the bottom of it.
     
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  10. Josh Smith
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    Josh Smith Junior Member

    Additional info: Texas specific.
    I believe you have to have a CDL to do all of this, but a load of 9’-11” or less flying OVERSIZE LOAD signs can operate 24/7 outside of the major cities’ posted rush hours. Anything 10’ wide or more can only be on the road from just before sunrise to just after sunset.

    Given the CDL and the wider load, how quickly does beam make this more feasible? In the 10’ range?
     
  11. Josh Smith
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    Josh Smith Junior Member

    Spent quite a bit of time on the Glen-L website. We’ve gotten plans off there before for much smaller projects.

    What you’ve said is BEAM. For safety, need more beam. Got it. So we will get the class A CDL and then when we move the vessel once she’s done, we apply for the 30 day oversize permit which will allow us to move a vessel up to 12’11” wide.

    Thanks to you, the specs now reflect 3’-5” of additional beam. A designer should be able to work with that, no?
     
  12. Waterwitch
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    Waterwitch Senior Member

  13. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    Do you have any low vertical clearance overpasses, traffic signals, trees or powerlines on your proposed routes? Is 1 foot a realistic allowance for the additional height due to the trailer?
     
  14. bajansailor
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    @Josh Smith I think that Waterwitch has nailed it for you with his link above - it sounds like Stuart Reid is no longer designing (?) but maybe if you contact John he might agree to take on a project like this?
     
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  15. Josh Smith
    Joined: Feb 2022
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    Location: Midland, Texas

    Josh Smith Junior Member

    The entire route between us and water (we live in a desert in western Texas) with the exception of getting in and out of neighborhoods is good with regular commercial traffic, min 14’ height. I believe that transport isn’t a problem if the package comes in a foot under the legal height limit. The width limit was what we were trying to wrap our heads around. MORE BEAM. So it was a fight between trailerable and TRAILERABLE, with the difference being what John Q Public can drive with his regular driver license and what is needed as far as a CDL and the cost of a 30 Texas DPS oversize permit to go and use with daytime travel only.
     
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