Pilgrimage/Boondocking Boat

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Penitent, Feb 24, 2020.

  1. Blueknarr
    Joined: Aug 2017
    Posts: 738
    Likes: 130, Points: 43
    Location: Colorado

    Blueknarr Senior Member

    My two cents worth:

    Manually moving several hundred pounds is laborious. Plan on moving the "base camp" in several loads.

    Find and join a small boat club in your neighborhood. Most clubs have training or mentoring programs. Their outings will provide lots of variation of techniques.
     
  2. clmanges
    Joined: Jul 2008
    Posts: 308
    Likes: 19, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 32
    Location: Ohio

    clmanges Senior Member

    Provided you have the boat rigged for sailing or can quickly and easily do so, I'd say: Only row as much as you need to, and let the wind do the rest for you. I think I'm oversimplifying it, though; conditions (e.g., weather, other boat traffic, water depth) will dictate.
     
  3. clmanges
    Joined: Jul 2008
    Posts: 308
    Likes: 19, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 32
    Location: Ohio

    clmanges Senior Member

    I wouldn't. Imagine moving half your goods to the new location, coming back for the other half and finding it gone. The only thing worse would be going back to the new location and finding that half of your equipment gone, too. You might start considering what the Buddhists say about detachment (Christianity has it's own views on "the things of this world").

    I'm not trying to be uncharitable here; most people are decent. But there are always those who will let themselves become thieves just because the opportunity presents itself, or for other reasons.

    With the right boat, everything can go in one load.
     
    bajansailor likes this.
  4. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
    Posts: 13,936
    Likes: 481, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 2031
    Location: Milwaukee, WI

    gonzo Senior Member

    Where are you located?
     
  5. Penitent
    Joined: Feb 2020
    Posts: 18
    Likes: 3, Points: 3
    Location: USA

    Penitent Junior Member

    Boating club: Good suggestion. I will see this as a core component of the boat learning plan.

    Sail when you can row when you have to: Ah. That makes sense. Then I’m guessing that’s how I would end up doing it, unless it turns out I end up in a boat that’s good to sail but too big to row.

    Time of year: I forgot to answer this earlier. I would want a set up that works year round. There could be some months that mission takes me elsewhere and away from it. I’m sure that WILL happen. But that would be as it randomly happens. I would need to be ABLE to use the boat year round. I know many bodies freeze over, but I was under the impression that year round set ups are feasible even very far north since the ocean doesn’t freeze (well ... not anywhere I would be going) and mant rivers stay unfrozen too.

    Where I’m located: The answer to that question often changes. :) The most meaningful answer would be currently the midwest, but I will move in the next couple months anyway, and I have great freedom in choosing where to move. Suppose for the sake of argument that the Gulf of Mexico near the Mississippi would be perfect for learning since it would allow being near multiple types of water. I have the freedom to move there for that reason.
     
  6. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
    Posts: 13,936
    Likes: 481, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 2031
    Location: Milwaukee, WI

    gonzo Senior Member

    Are you close to Milwaukee?
     
  7. Penitent
    Joined: Feb 2020
    Posts: 18
    Likes: 3, Points: 3
    Location: USA

    Penitent Junior Member

    I am not.
     
  8. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
    Posts: 2,602
    Likes: 221, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: usa

    fallguy Senior Member

    Well?
     
  9. Mr Efficiency
    Joined: Oct 2010
    Posts: 8,133
    Likes: 393, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 702
    Location: Australia

    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    This thread puzzles me, you are either going boating, or into a contemplative "retreat" situation, I don't see much scope for mixing the two.
     
  10. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
    Posts: 2,602
    Likes: 221, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: usa

    fallguy Senior Member

    I dunno. I am confused why he won't say where he is from.

    This looks contemplative to me. 836BE8D7-48EA-40A3-9BDF-B7C5F9293668.jpeg
     
    bajansailor likes this.
  11. Mr Efficiency
    Joined: Oct 2010
    Posts: 8,133
    Likes: 393, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 702
    Location: Australia

    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    The gentleman that allegedly walked on water, whom the OP presumably wants to emulate, did away with the need for the boat ! :D
     
  12. Penitent
    Joined: Feb 2020
    Posts: 18
    Likes: 3, Points: 3
    Location: USA

    Penitent Junior Member

    The question I am being asked about the seeming contradiction is perfectly fair. However I see no possible way to view or answer it as a boating question. It is a religious question with a religious answer, that relates to the boating question. I’m perfectly happy to do my best to give that answer. It is a religious answer. I fully agree it would be completely inappropriate to show up on a random forum and post the following out of the blue. But since I was asked, I’ll try to answer.

    I think in my first reply I mentioned that the religious orders I’m modeling do a pilgrimage as a one time months long thing, not a way of life. But that was many posts ago, in passing, and even then might not be clear what I mean. I believe people think I’m modeling a form of religious life that I am not.

    First, by religious here I mean a technical term. What people think of as monk. Living a vow to seek Christian perfection through the evangelical counsels of poverty chastity obedience. So if I refer to living religious life, a religious, and so on, I mean what most people think of as monk life. If monk was not incorrect in the formal terminology, I would say monk. It would probably cause less confusion. But it’s incorrect so I can’t. If I talk about a certain Catholic practice not being religious life, I do not mean a devout Catholic doing that is an evil heathen who “isn’t religious.” I mean he isn’t A religious. He might be extremely religious. He is just not (what is colloquially called) a monk, since that has a very specific, formal, theological definition. I don’t know if that caused confusion. Once used to this it causes no confusion but at first it can, because it’s technical jargon that sounds like an informal statement with a distinct meaning. Every single time I use the term religious life, religious, and so on, I mean the technical jargon not the colloquial term. (Priests who aren’t religious are actually called SECULAR priests. Colloquially that probably almost sounds like saying the priest doesn’t believe in God. This initially greatly confused me. How can a PRIEST be secular? The term only means that the priest is not what is colloquially called a monk. It is saying he is not A religious, even though he is presumably a highly religious person, in the colloquial sense.)

    Pilgrimage is a very rare form of religious life. I have tremendous respect for it. I just don’t feel called to it. I respect it as a far higher religious calling than what I have. To me, that is the ultimate in abandonment to divine providence. I’m in aww of the saints who lived that as their LIFE. The evangelical counsels themselves seem almost easy compared to tacking on THAT.

    Certain religious orders do a one time, months long pilgrimage as a sort of exercise in ultimate abandonment to divine providence. This is something I AM modeling. One time, in my entire life, I do in fact plan to walk for months on end with nothing but a water bottle/filter. Planning? There isn’t much. Have a route, take your bottle, start walking, trust in God. I mean pilgrimage also as technical jargon. The “rules” are roughly that you do not take/have anything whatsoever except the clothes on your back and the water bottle/filter, the entire time. You eat and sleep by charity only. No one feeds you for three days? Then you don’t eat. And you can’t accept money even as charity. Only food. Abandonment to divine providence. You HAVE to trust in God because you aren’t allowed to do anything but walk and trust that God sends a kind stranger. (The filter is considered allowed now due to greater pollution and modern immune systems not used to drinking river water, such that going without would be more like demanding a miracle than abandonment to divine providence. The purpose is not to jump off a building and demand a miracle to fly.)

    I am also using the term pilgrimage as technical jargon. Many make wonderful trips colloquially called pilgrimage, that probably bring them closer to God. That’s just not what I am referring to since I mean the technical term.

    Anyway, I plan to do a months long pilgrimage once in my life, since it is a standard part of “religious formation” in the religious orders I am modeling. While I do look forward to (yet fear) doing this once, and revere those who make it life, I do not in any way feel called to this form of religious life more permanently. It is not what I am trying to enable. Indeed if it was, all my statements about boats and supplies would be an automatic contradiction in terms. Since indeed this WOULD be a contradiction in terms, and multiple members seem to think my plan HAS a contradiction in terms, my guess is this is the miscommunication.

    Yes, if I felt called to lifelong pilgrimage, this entire thread would be self contradictory. How can a (literal) boat load of supplies enable ... a life of intentionally having no supplies? Answer: It can’t.

    I am modeling the mendicant orders. Missionary, preaching, things like that. South America converted in the age of sail, which is far from coincidence. This was spearheaded by the mendicant orders. Obviously mendicant orders still pray, but it’s not contemplative. The primary dichotomy (I would say) in religious orders is active vs contemplative. Mendicant is active. I mentioned the age of sail. Once across the ocean and IN a place like Canada, it was often canoe. Boat loads of supplies. Literally. When people say Catholic missionary ... some were secular priests, but missionary work was spearheaded by the religious orders. There must be some sort of major miscommunication, and I can’t tell what it is, because there is CERTAINLY no contradiction between being a mendicant and using a boat for mission. History makes this clear, from Jesus and the apostles themselves through the age of sail mendicants through modern times. All technologies of the time that aren’t sinful or somehow contrary to the evangelical counsels are freely used if they are effective.

    Religious orders have supplies. Monasteries have supplies. They had wagons and boats filled with supplies. They have whole supply rooms in monasteries just like buildings for other organizations. Mendicant life isn’t a pilgrimage. What’s holy for the pilgrim could be an actual sin for the mendicant: If you KNOW you need a certain important item for your mission yet INTENTIONALLY do not take it, when you could have... that’s very serious. The pilgrim sins to take it. The mendicant sins not to. There is no contradiction. Each life station has its duties. The pilgrim doesn’t have a mission other than to serve as a beacon of light, an ultimate example of divine produce. Whoa to the Bishop who does the same. That would simply be the most irresponsible Bishop in all of history. A father has to feed his kids, not claim it’s holy abandonment to divine providence not to. The pilgrim has no such duty.

    Pilgrim poverty means having nothing. (Well ... the pilgrim is allowed to eat a fancy meal if that’s what happens to be offered to him. But he doesn’t control that.) Mendicant poverty is more like, “Only what your ministry and apostolate require.” But that can be a lot. Like a literal boat load or wagon load of supplies. A Friary. (Mendicant monasteriy, you could say.) And so on.

    Monasteries often did what would in modern terms be called homesteading. Some still do. I guess I could compare it to the military term field camp/hospital. What I describe would be a “field Friary” of sorts. And the sailing the farm type methods would be something like “micro mobile homesteading.”

    I can assure you that multiple vowed religious know what I’m trying to do, and one critique I have NOT heard is it’s not simple enough. Quite the opposite. Groups like the Amish are universally considered plain people. Please understand that what I am describing is SIGNIFICANTLY more austere than such a life. Bushcraft and living off a cart of supplies makes homesteading feel like a five star hotel. If this comes off as somehow contradicting religious simplicity, then there must be some serious miscommunication such as it being compared to pilgrimage, because I’m describing something far more austere than things universally called plain. (I agree that what I am trying is far LESS austere than pilgrimage.)

    The haul capacity I refer to is what I believe is the minimal amount that lets religious life be ENABLED, instead of it instead becoming a sort of just a knife survival challenge. Full time survival instructors with a pack of gear have been featured in popular culture. Survival is glamorized to a degree that things are portrayed as possible that usually kill EVEN top experts. “Survivorman” got Giardi and had to seek medical treatment outside the woods. Endless survival instructors quickly quit or become medically dropped. Winners lose 70 pounds in two months, only even able to continue since the show hires a physician to track contestant health. Endless similar stories exist from reality, not tv.

    A backpack full of gear is not sustainable. This is mostly a fantasy sold for tv ratings. Exceptions happen, but it IS the exception.

    A few hundred pounds of supplies, very well chosen, changes this completely. Instead of top experts nearly dying, fairly regular people consistently do it. It certainly takes knowledge, but at a level a normal diligent man can learn, not anything like the just a knife or just a backpack challenges.

    I know vowed religious personally. I know others who lived a year in a monastery before leaving. And I have some academic reading on the matters. I have not ever seen anything, from any of these sources, that indicate nonsinful mission enabling gear would somehow be disallowed for not being simple enough. To boating I am new, but I do have a certain amount of background knowledge on the religious side. I can say with certainty that a boat does not contradict religious life.

    God bless.
     
  13. Penitent
    Joined: Feb 2020
    Posts: 18
    Likes: 3, Points: 3
    Location: USA

    Penitent Junior Member

    I know vowed religious, men who started or are starting religious orders, men who might join, men who tried but left, and so on, on a personal level. What I have seen is when someone wants to join but feels they can’t without compromise, they see no third way.

    Pilgrimage is a rare form of religious life. Most are not called to that.

    I do not see men say, “Well, joining a formal order can’t work. Oh well. I’ll just take a water bottle and trust in God.”

    What I see is they abandon religious life, often NOT because they don’t feel called to it, but because they honestly have no idea what else to even do. They aren’t claiming to be the next Saint Benedict. They are far more normal, like me. Like me, they probably aren’t the next great history making founder. Like me, they probably have no idea where to begin without the framework that developed to support religious life.

    Homesteading doesn’t work, in my opinion. It just means nothing ever starts. Huge upfront funding is required. Artificial zoning laws have arisen the last thirty or forty years that appear to have the express purpose of making such things artificially difficult. This is not specific to Catholicism at all. “Intentional communities” for all kinds of religious and political groups will tell you that once the basics are in place, and funding, the issue will be zoning, not due to any actual problem, but due to political and religious persecution by those in power who disagree.

    I’m sure my appearance on a boat forum seems random, but it is not. This has been a matter thoroughly researched over years. It is not only hermits and contemplatives that separate. Mendicants do too. An apartment has lack of religious separation problems. A house or homestead runs into artificial zoning problems, and in practice in my opinion just means people quit religious life. I do not know of anyone who logistically enabled independent religious life for themselves through a house or homestead. All I see is the thought of needing that is exactly what causes the quitting in the first place.

    It must be bomb proof. There must be no great up front cost that just means quitting. There must be no enormous cost when something predictably breaks later.

    And yet it also can’t be a nearly impossible just a knife challenge that destroys instead of enables religious life. (Pilgrims live by charity, not bushcraft. They are beggars. That is why they can live forty years with nothing, while just a knife means almost certain death. Pilgrims are NOT completing a just a knife challenge. They are not survivalists.)

    I believe I have most of a system in place that will let the quitting end. Some others seem to believe this too, as I have now gotten very serious inquires on progress and how close I think I am, not asked out of curiosity but in hopes it works so they can do it too. The boating part is obviously near the beginning of planning. The rest is not. I assume the boating part still sounds half crazy, but that’s how it starts.

    I will in fact start this with a simple trailer towed by walking. In a SENSE that is all that is needed. But that’s if the standard is NEED. I believe a significantly better set up exists, and I believe it is by boat.

    Yes, boondockers have independence, haul capacity, and mobility without artificial zoning problems or needing a hundred thousand upfront. It is still too easily broken, not field maintainable enough, requires gas ... it is not the same.

    Haul capacity by field repairable, independence enabling means is by boat. That’s it.

    There are plenty of other considerations, but these posts were already long enough.

    Boating probably sounds random, but it isn’t. Bomb proof today means mobile. Practical requires haul. Bomb proof means no engine ...

    You put all these together and it’s a boat. It’s human tow on foot if truly needed, just so the boat itself isn’t an excuse to quit, but if you can then it’s a boat. I believe those quitting since they think they need a giant building for religious life, since without it they don’t know how, would realize it’s quite possible with modest camping skill and a few hundred pounds of haul capacity.

    This requires some form of homelessness to avoid rent. I forgot that part. I would be middle class at my pay rate if I work a normal amount, but that level of work contradicts religious life. So it requires either camping, living on a boat or in a van, or some such thing.

    I do not believe anything but a boat exists that simultaneously satisfies all these properties.
     
  14. Mr Efficiency
    Joined: Oct 2010
    Posts: 8,133
    Likes: 393, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 702
    Location: Australia

    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Hope you aren't taking the phone ! :eek:
     

  15. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
    Posts: 2,602
    Likes: 221, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: usa

    fallguy Senior Member

    The reason people ask you where you plan to boat or where you live is to help you define the sor. My well? is about that.

    Learning to disregard comments which are not helpful and to esteem comments which are helpful is something that takes many years to learn, so I gather you are younger.

    Pay no attention to bubble bursting.

    Provisions for you will probably weigh about a hundred +/- fifty pounds. Colder temps add weight if you are wise.

    Long boat trips are only available in certain places. They all require different vessels. Where is more important than what you like.

    For example, if you plan a journey around the great lakes; a canoe is unwise and could get you killed. Otoh, if you plan the Quetico, a canoe is about all you can do. You choices are not as vast as you may believe. If you want to camp on Rainy Lake, for example; the lake is rather large and a canoe trip would be a bit dangerous; not impossible, but even a 12 foot boat with a small motor needs to be very careful about weather windows; a canoe, more so.

    Safety in boating is generally paramount. This, again, is the reason we ask where are you using the vessel and less important is why. Whether you want to go read a Bible or eat grapes matters less.

    To answer bay, lake, river is a bit open as well.
     
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.