Phinisi Diving Live Aboard in Indonesia

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by Magdalena, Sep 16, 2013.

  1. Magdalena
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    Magdalena New Member

    We are professional divers who are in process of investment in diving live aboard project in Indonesia.
    Sailing phinisi boat 5* service , as a reference you can check the web sites of diving live aboard in indonesia.
    Diving cruises would take part all year round to all parts of Indonesia such as Raja Ampat, Komodo etc.depending on the season.
    We gathered already all information regarding the construction , design , project management and crew.
    The size of the boat would be 33m LOD ( length on deck) , 9 m width , 8 cabins ( 18m2) each with Indonesian luxury finishing. boat is designed for 16 passengers plus 18 crew and is going to make around 20 up to 26 trips per year.
    Price for similar 5* luxury boat for 10 days cruising per pax. is 5500$ plus extra expenses on board.
    From our over 10 years experience in diving business we see that demand for such a services in Indonesia is more then supply,to the extend that most of the boats are fully booked 2 years in advance.
    The total investment is calculated around 1.000.000 US$,
    The project and design of the boat can be still discussed with the share holders.
    If some one would be interested to join....we are still searching for share holders
     
  2. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Well, from your brief spec's of the boat I would say your shy by around US$5million, since a DSV for that size and spec would be in the $6-6.5m range.
     
  3. Magdalena
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    Magdalena New Member

  4. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    The link is broken?

    Well when you said you're professionals, I assumed you would have Nitrox compressor, Air compressor, decompression chamber, a hydraulic LARS, 1st aid emergency room for starters, and then if you add in a set of new engines, props, genset, fire suppression and air/con and life rafts, showers laundry galley etc etc...just this eqpt alone you wont see any change of US$1m. And then of course there is Class and Flag to consider too..which adds yet more cost.
     
  5. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Adhoc, a 33 meters ship of this kind ready to sail at 5 millions is pretty cheap. Five years ago, for a Mexican owner I budgeted the cost of building a similar GRP boat for live a board diving, built and flagged in the USA, DNV classified, completely equipped and insured was 6.78 M USD.
    A 33 meters is the size of a big patrol boat or a small mine hunter after all.
     
  6. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Hi IV

    Hope all is well?? :) :)

    Agreed. I said he was $5m shy as he has budgeted only for $1m; as I estimate around the $6-6.5m.

    I did a 40m DSV a few years ago, so I too know roughly what price these go for. But if he wants it built out of wood (which is what I suspect - I assumed ally), and running like a banca or other similar SE Asian boat with cheap old pertol engine and no safety gear etc etc....then sure he can get what ever he wants....except for rich paying customers. As they'll see it is just a cheap wooden boat with not much else.
     
  7. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    Quite not large enough. 33meters by 9 meters means around 300m2 occupational space (the engines room is not included) on two decks. The Phinisi have very fine ends an a lot of overhang.
    8 cabins of 18m2 each means 144m2.
    Leaving 156m2 for the 18 crew, general social space for the 16 guests, galley, saloon, captain quarter, diving room, compressor room, store room and so on.
    The boat is too small.
     
  8. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Hi, I do not want to hack the thread so I'll be short. It's going very slow since 2008 et the tourists are "cheaper", less willing to spend so the investment is near zero, as the profit margins have plummeted since four years. Add the narco war and the explosion of the federal, estatal and municipal taxes, and nobody feels great...

    About market, we are not qualified; too rational, too used to think about risks management. I'm sure you're like me even for buying a bicycle you'll make some calculation about ratios quality price. And you'll buy the bicycle only if you badly need it. Not for a fantasy. Happily for the consumerist society, most are not like that, so they'll buy Harley Davidsons, cabriolets, Ipad Ipod and other useless things.

    There are several charter diving phinisis. http://divingseasafari.com/charter_boat.php for example. Lot of pics. Note the the owner charters the boat to the dive shops without insurance for the passengers...If the boat sinks, who's responsible? It seems it's better to rent (about 12000 euros a month) than to build, maintain and run the boat...I would leave also to the Indonesian owner all the bureaucracy problems, as backchiches, permits, papers, employees management, captain and sailors, shipyard and maintenance problems. For a foreigner that can become a nightmare.

    I would point a detail; if I remember well any commercial boat above 24 meters has to follow the IMO rules, with all the (normal) security constraints (that explains that most of the ferries and charters in Mexico are under 24 meters, even for short trips...). How they do in Indonesia with these boats about classification, insurances etc.? special local permits if the boat stays in Indonesian waters? How it works for the passengers in case of accident like a wrecking or worst a fire? I can imagine a European or American owner having serious problems in Europe or America in such a bad event. How will work the DAN PADI insurance?

    Ok, they look so romantic, and I do love wooden boats. But as investor I would like to get serious answers... Even in wood, kept simple, etc...the 1 million is too low. For 16 divers and 4 PADI instructors you'll need between 40 to 60 tanks to fill each day; that means two air compressors, if nitrox an oxygen membrane, a mixer, the stock of filters, oil, and a lot of spare parts to import plus a good installation by a very qualified guy. That smells already 100.000 USD. And that takes a lot of place. You'll maybe need also a mini hyperbaric chamber because a paralysed guy is not a good advertisement. As says my wife (CMAS; PADI,and Cave Instructor) decompression accidents happen any time even respecting the rules.
     
  9. philSweet
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    philSweet Senior Member

    Aint that the truth. In the Keys, I was asked to take a look at a fellow's boat that was being cobbled together for parasailing. He had about 200 dollars into the thing. Free hull with completely rotten stringers throughout. He dropped a schoolbus motor in it and braced the motor in place with 2x4s screwed to the hull. There was no motor mounts and nothing to mount it to. Thus rigged, he began parasailing tours at a large resort off a couple sheets of CDX screwed to the deck. He's probably a millionaire now. He had to unbuild the boat and fix everything about every other tour, but he learned quick. (This was one of the few situations I ran - not walked - away from.):D

    As far as all the special purpose dive gear goes, might we not assume that the op has some of that already?
     
  10. Magdalena
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    Magdalena New Member

  11. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    Beside the collision bulkhead you have only one watertight bulkhead, and the engine room doesn't have an aft full beam watertight bulkhead.
    Your vessel as it is will not pass any inspection. Flooding can be of great concern, and damage stability will be not to the norm. As a customer I will be worry if something happens God forbid.
    But in fairness I don't know your Country, so probably you know what you are doing. I will take a second look at the safety in case of accidental flooding.
    I am with you with the deep draft, but be aware deep draft do not lower the period of roll, it can be even the contrary. What you gain is a better stability at large angle of heel, allowing you to have more sail. If your customer like it of course.
    You seams to have worked a lot on this project.
     
  12. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Your website states "...Safety is a top priority on the Arenui. All precautions have been taken to ensure that the Arenui fully complies with current international safety standards..."

    So carrying more than 12 passengers, it is a "Passenger vessel" as per SOLAS. Thus, what is the Class and Flag notation for this vessel?

    Having the ....hyperbaric chamber in Bali.... is a bit late. Needs to be on-board, not at some distance away on shore.
     
  13. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Yes Ad Hoc. More than 24 meters and transporting more than 12 passengers, it must comply with all the international rules for passenger ships. I think there is a local "tolerance" in Indonesia for these kind of ships... If it's a cargo, or even passengers but only Indonesian, an accident is a local affair, but for a live a board working with international clients recruited in Internet or by a foreign agency for a foreign owned dive shop that seems a bit more delicate.

    For example I'm pretty sure that in case of accident of UE or USA passengers, the UE or USA travel agency and the UE and/or USA owner of the dive shop can be sued and will be held responsible by any European or American court and condemned in penal and civil. A very costly affair. That means also that this person cannot renew his passport nor come back in his country as a condemnation is waiting him. He will be caught in the airport and sent to prison.

    An American guy living in the Riviera Maya is in this case after a diving accident where a US citizen died. I won't comment on the circumstances. The family sued him and obtained a 5 years condemnation for manslaughter by a Texas court, plus the civil indemnities. He lost also his PADI agreement. So he had to "buy" urgently and expensively a Mexican citizenship, and to give a big "tip" to the Mexican prosecutor and also the judge to "forget" the affair in Mexico, where he could be also sued by the Federal State for non respect of the local rules. They sucked until the last dollar and thrown him after 3 months out of jail penniless. After losing everything, he is now a forced resident in Mexico...

    So I would be very careful, consult several local lawyers knowing well how the local justice system is applied to foreigners, and look at least for some local insurance, even if the local indemnities are ridiculously low by UE and USA standarts. Without SOLAS and class, forget about a reputable insurance like the Lloyds.

    After a serious decompression accident, the 2 first hours are crucial as after the damages can become permanent...without a close hyperbaric chamber you dive at your own risk. The PADI rules minimize the possibility of decompression but do not suppress totally the risk, as I have seen a few times. The most common is a diver tired after several days of diving complaining of dizziness or pain in the articulations. I have made a search, and the Aggressor (what a ugly name) fleet is SOLAS compliant, but has not hyperbaric chambers on the boats.
     
  14. RAraujo
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    RAraujo Senior Member - Naval Architect

    Even if the vessel is longer than 24m and carrying more than 12 passengers the applicable safety regulations will depend on the flag state administration (which I assume is the same of the coast state - Indonesia) if the vessel is exclusively used in domestic trade.

    Most of SOLAS is not applicable - Ch.I, Reg.1 states that, unless otherwise stated, it is only applicable to ships on international trade - unless the flag imposes it (but Ch. V for instance is applicable).

    Also SOLAS Ch.I, Reg.3 (iv) excludes wooden ships of primitive building (which this type can eventually be considered).

    Note that I'm only referring to applicability of international safety regulations and not advocating that they should not be followed.
     

  15. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Raraujo, many thanks for the precisions. Mexico being close to the States, similar rules are used in both countries, so SOLAS rules except in Mexico for the + 12 passengers small (under 40 feet) tourist tours, dive and snorkeling boats navigating pretty close to the coast. The harbor captain decides every morning if the small boats whatever their use, can navigate safely in the existent weather conditions and navigation can be forbidden at any time of the day. There are also special safety rules and insurances for these boats.

    So, the problem is: how to consider an eventually foreign owned Indonesian wooden boat used by a foreign owned dive shop (even if the dive shop is legally Indonesian) servicing foreign customers. Technically, the service is done in Indonesian waters by an Indonesian flagged boat so the Indonesian rules apply whatever the origin of the owner and customers but...

    I would ask myself how the Indonesian law applies, as it's well known that in most Third World countries laws are enforced "slightly" differently for the national and for the foreigner. The price of the judges vary greatly also...Like said the former Brazilian dictator Kubitchek "For my friends everything, for the others the Law", look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirsty_MacColl and read the chapter "death"...and you'll understand, the information given is perfectly exact.

    If being the American owner of the dive shop I wouldn’t feel too confident about the risk of not being sued in the States, as in case of an imprudence easily demonstrated by any American lawyer, the case will be probably opened if the family is combative.

    As diver, I would ask also the DAN PADI insurance to be sure that it works without restrictions, and what is exactly covered on a "non SOLAS" live aboard. And can you, as diver, get another travel insurance for diving and sailing on a "non SOLAS" boat? Not so sure, fine prints are there and insurance companies like to minimize their risks.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
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