Peoples OLYMPIC Foiler!

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, May 19, 2006.

  1. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    I was doing a little research in order to properly respond to another topic on this forum when I discovered the announcement by Rohan Veal that he had just returned from discussing the prospects for an Olympic Foiler with the ISAF in
    Berlin! Now, if you're a foiler aficinado then this is extraordinarily exciting news that could lead to a whole new Peoples Foiler(or foilers) with builders in many countries of the world. I would imagine that there will be a long road ahead to bring this to fruition but the door seems to be wide open with the ISAF "very interested" according to Rohan.
    I can visualize a call for designs and a trial as has been done before-boy would I like to be on the beach for that! Imagine several new foiler designs each competing for the historic right to be the first Olympic foiler-takes my breath away!
    There is tremendous world wide excitement generated by the fabulous technology currently being perfected by the International Moth and it's bound to lead-someday- to a widely available Peoples Foiler and ,now, it looks like an Olympic Peoples foiler is in the works as well.....just plain exciting!
    http://www.rohanveal.com/home.html
     
  2. marshmat
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    marshmat Senior Member

    I think one of the biggest obstacles here is cost- a good set of foils still adds a few thousand to the cost of an average foil-capable dinghy. I know plenty of people who would be interested in buying a foiler dinghy, but can't afford to. As costs come down, I suspect public interest will go up.
     
  3. Raggi_Thor
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    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    We sell alu profiles, naca 0012, 200, 300 and 400mm, at approx 300USD per meter. They are probably much heavier than carbon :)
     
  4. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Foiler cost

    Matt, I just received a quote for a brand new foiler Moth from KA sails in Australia. They just recently announced their intention to produce the boat. Basic, ready to sail price INCLUDING DELIVERY to Cocoa Beach ,Fl. is $12,070US which seems really reasonable considering that the foiler Moth beats almost every other boat under 20'.John Ilett( www.fastacraft.com ) has perhaps the most refined foiler Moth on the market and a proven World Champion boat for about the same price. The other alternative is to build your own except for the rig and foils and you can do that for around $6-7000. The down side of the Moth is the low competitive weight range for the crew but for just high speed foiling the recent 26.3 knot record was set by a guy weighing 180lb.'s!
    I believe that any foilers developed as peoples foilers especially for the Olympics will have an increased competitive weight range while at the same time solving some other problems as well by including removable buoyany pods, using unstayed rigs etc. The KA people claim that their boat already solves one problem with retractable foils so it can be easily beach sailed; I should point out that John Ilett is skeptical of that claim. I think that if a foiler comes to the Olympics there is a great chance that the pioneering work already done in the Moth class will be refined further into a true ,popular, one design class.
    ------------------
    In their brochure KA says they have been overwhelmed with interest in the new boat and are tooling up to produce 16 boats per month as soon as possible.....
     
  5. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    US Moth Nwewsletter/ KA interview

    Here is the new US Moth Class newsletter with two notable interviews: one with Andrew Mac Dougal(sp?) of KA about their new Moth/ Bladerider one design "Olympic" foiler. They're offering a larger sail than legal in the Moth class as well as the standard sail.
    And an interview with Andy Paterson where he (sort of) echo's Phil Stevo's comments that "Only a Moth can foil(upwind,at least)". Say it ain't so ,Andy....
    Interesting design comments from both of these guys......
    USMMCA News Letters
    Address:http://www.mothboat.com/USMMCA/newsletters.htm Changed:11:52 AM on Wednesday, May 31, 2006
     
  6. Andy P
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    Andy P Junior Member

    I mean that the weight is most critical, and that moths are just at the right point for low weight and enough righting moment and sail power.

    Models work very well, but the scaling factors apply once the size goes up. ( and it gets worse the bigger you get )


    Heavier = bigger foils for same lift speed, but that means more drag, or same size foils means more speed required iinitially to lift out.



    It's quite possible to get bigger heavier foilers working OK upwind ( eg hydoptere for a very big foiler), but everything gets bigger and heavier and
    needs to be extra strong, which means bigger and heavier etc etc.
    So it can be done, but there needs to be lots of experiments to get the right foil size, take off speed and top speed.

    Let's see the Doug L foiler in action, and then we''l know!
     
  7. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Doug L foiler aka aeroSKIFF

    Andy,pictures and video are coming but you don't have to wait. Several I14's are sailing on foils now and David Luggs I14-the first two person bi foil monofoiler sailed on foils in 1999-upwind and downwind until he changed to small downwind only foils. Imagine if full flying foils hadn't been outlawed in that class! Then, of course, there is the very first monofoiler-Monitor- which was designed built and sailed in the USA back in the 50's- it used a slower three ladder foil system but was still able to foil upwind and actually tacked on foils.
    The idea postulated on the Moth forum that of all possible monohull foilers only the Moth can foil(or foil upwind) is just plain wrong-it's just a matter of time before new bigger monofoilers hit the water-and quite a number have already done it! I have a recent picture that John Ilett sent me of a 14 using his foils(designed specifically for that boat) which I'll send you-and if anybody else is interested just send me an e-mail and I'll forward it to you-I can't post it here.
    And if you really want to see a dl foiler foiling now just go to www.microsail.com for pix and video of the F3-the worlds first production RC multifoiler-small but mighty cool. And I'm working hard to get the big one ready for show and tell in the not too distant future.
    www.monofoiler.com
     
  8. TTS
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    TTS Senior Member

    Bringing new life to older thread. Lets lay out 2 points about costs. It does not matter how much a boat costs originally, add the words "Olympic class" and the cost escalates. The only boat in which this may not be the case with is the Laser class. Though I believe that the costs of sails, foils and others have increased. Cost of the platform truly is the least part of Olympic campaigning. A new Tornado, fully rigged with additional sails, foils, masts, etc... is in the US50,000-60,000. The Boat itself is around US38,000 race ready. The true cost is the campaining itself which might need a budget of US500,000 for a four year campaign. So it is almost redundant to even look at the boat cost. Maybe if you looked at 100,000+ then you could talk. A new Star race ready is in the same range, if not slightly higher than a Tornado.
     
  9. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    True, but only in some ways.

    Some guys still do very low-cost Olympic campaigns. A guy I know spent about the price of a new Moth (I think) on his Athens Olympic campaign, which resulted in about 6th place. That was an unusual case - he is a former champ and medallist in a very cheap class - but it may underline that not everyone can ignore the cash. He only got $9000 for his campaign from official funding - that's only the price of a Laser and gear. I think the rest (and there wasn't much AFAIK) came from class and club fundraisers like film nights. There's not much room there to find more cash for a more expensive craft.

    I watched part of Sydney 2000 with the parent of a Laser guy who finished about 10th. He wasn't a rich guy and he funded most of the campaign. The extra cost of a more expensive boat may have stuffed his campaign.

    Secondly, it's not all about the few crews and countries that can afford to run a full "bugger the budget" campaign. It's also about the small countries, the guys trying a campaign for the future or as a slim hope. To them, surely boat price is a factor.

    Thirdly, many countries don't want just one Olympic campaigner in each class. That means they can't get much benefit at home from their campaign and they can't train. They want a boat cheap enough to generate an entire fleet. For proof, look no further than the many countries that lobbied to have the Europe replaced by the Radial because the Radial is cheaper. The submissions are on the ISAF site.

    Fourthly, surely the number of people on ISAF's ranking lists is a good indication of how popular each Olympic class is. There's about 4 times as many Lasers (2800 pounds) as keelboats (about 13,000 pounds cost). There's twice as many male 470s (6,700 pounds) as 49ers (11,000 pounds).
    The Tornado - perhaps the costliest and certainly the fastest - is the second least popular.

    So to some campaigns (including some good ones) boat cost IS an important factor. To some countries, boat cost IS an important factor. And if you want to make Olympic campaigning popular it seems that boat cost IS an important factor.
     
  10. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Moth for Olympics

    As one of the most demanding boats in the world to sail and without a doubt the most technologically advanced dinghy it seems the Moth would be an excellent candidate for the Olympics. When you throw in its modest cost compared to most other Olympic classes it's a natural in my opinion. It's almost as fast as the Tornado in foiling conditions and costs less than any boat but the Laser or windsurfer.
    The Moth or a one design derivative should be in the Olympics!
     
  11. Meanz Beanz
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    A development class wouldn't suit. You would have to freeze the design and take one design option, but then its not a Moth.
     
  12. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Peoples Olympic Foiler

    Garry Hoyt-from todays Scuttlebutt:
    "For example, to insist on the inclusion of female match racing in Ynglings amounts to a foolish fixation on an arcane and visually unexciting aspect of the sport. Likewise, the venerable Star Class is inappropriate because the cost and complexity of the equipment—like the weight of its crew—is too heavy. And given the Olympic goal of “higher, faster, farther”, why should we exclude multi-hulls, which are demonstrably one of sailing’s fastest forms? With all these thoughts in mind, here are my recommendations for future Olympic Classes:



    · The foiling Moth - Surely these are the most exciting new boats on the sailing scene—requiring an entirely new mix of strength, balance and steering skill, and delivering an entirely new look to sailing.



    · The A Cat - Simple, but very sophisticated, these lively trapeze single handers are faster than any of the current Olympic classes.



    · The Windsurfer - Still the world’s fastest sailboats—how can they not be included? But make their minimum starting breeze be 12 knots to reduce the pumping factor.



    · Kite Sailing - This is destined to be the fastest sailing of the future—as physically exacting as it is visually spectacular. But forget the traditional Olympic Course—give them a straight Ocean Triangle that begins and ends on the beach—going out and in through waves.



    · New concept - A new 15 ft. all carbon, sit down, single sail, planning dinghy to replace the Finn and the Laser—admirable classes that have earned their retirement in favor of new technology.



    These recommendations would reduce Olympic Sailing line up (and expenses) to a more manageable 5 classes, each with male and female divisions. Youth and athleticism would be highly favored, as they should be in the Olympics. All of the traditional forms of sailing would benefit from the emphasis on individual sailing skill, which automatically creates new avenues of accessibility that provide needed balance to sailing’s confining image of complexity.

    Given the ossified thinking that prevails in the upper ranks of sailing regulators, ideas like this are likely to be resisted. But the dogmatic replication of conventional sailing competition will predictably result in the elimination of sailing from the Olympics. New action has its risks, but inaction is the biggest risk of all." -- Garry Hoyt
     
  13. Meanz Beanz
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    The Olympics is about the athletes and not the boats, hence the longevity of classes that are really outdated. I agree that it would be more exciting to watch more modern designs fight it out but they IMO should be one design boats that have or could easily gain enough global support as a class. If not it becomes too much about the design and build and less about the Olympian.

    Can kites get far enough to windward to sail a triangle?

    Surely he does not mean the "Windsurfer", they where dogs when I was sailing them... a decent race board would be a much better craft.

    Kill the Laser by all means, why they are popular fails me.... horrid thing to sail and that comes from an ex Moth sailor.

    Why the heck they gave up on multis in the first place???

    I wonder what impact nominating a particular A Class design as the Olympic boat would have on the class over all? Would it sap the spirit of development that brought us these boats in the first place as the talent migrates toward the craft that they can win gold in? Would it simply split the class? How long before that chosen design stagnates?

    What about the idea of a world championship half way through the Olympic cycle that determines the design for each class for the next Olympics. A kind of stepped development class where for two years after the Olympics the builders and designers go nuts then we determine the best design in competition then the athletes have two years to sail the design into the games. That way we don't get stuck in a rut but the playing field is level at the games.

    MBz
     
  14. catsketcher
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    Go elite and suffer

    I like most of Meanz usually says but I don't agree at all with comments on the Laser.

    The Laser is popular because it provides excellent racing, is cheap and one design. Doug and I will have to agree to disagree on this but I have raced Tornados and Lasers and had heaps more fun in Lasers. I loved racing Lasers - 160 identical boats on a start line - what a thrill, going around a mark with 30 others at the same time - amazing. I was a uni kid with almost zero dollars and I qualified for the worlds in Lasers. My uncle and my mum gave me some cash along with some money from part time work. We spent almost half as much on my 1987 worlds campaign on a jib for a Tornado one year later. Tornados were a pain to move, rig and when I did a port and starboard I almost killed my crew and wrecked a bow. The Laser states had 160 boats in 1986, almost double today. The Tornado states in 1987 had 6 boats about the same today. For me and for hundreds more like me the answer is obvious - Lasers provide better sailing - that is why you can find a Laser race anywhere in the world. Not the same for a Tornado or Moth or I suspect any specialist fast boat.

    Doug wants foilers - I would like the Olympics driven by what people sail. My Olympic boats would be Laser, Etchell/Soling, 470, 49er, Windsurfer or Mistral with weight limit and Hobie 16. (Maybe the Hobie - where I live I have seen one cat race in the last few months.) The only cat club has died and has gone to a mono club. That Lake Macquarie has dozens of yacht and dinghy clubs but can't maintain one cat club says heaps about small cat racing and its popularity.

    The best sailors usually sail slow (for multihullers) boats. People like racing slow boats. That is why there are so many monos, people like them - they love them. They race well, they get in close. Get to close in a Tornado and you can do a few thousand real quickly, in a Laser all you do is have to say sorry.

    We can yell from the sidelines but promoting hard to use boats will be the same as flogging the dead horse. The elite sailors I know (used to know) all like to sail the present boats. Watch Brendan Casey or Tom Slingsby in a Laser - it is amazing. Watch a kite surfer for wow factor but for racing and sailing proficiency the subtleties of close medium pace fleet racing are what bring most racers back week after week. I think the Olympics should reflect what the majority do and the vast majority do slowish monos - good luck to them.

    I remember getting bagged by my mono friends when I got my first tri back in 1983. All I asked was for them to respect my decision to sail what I wanted. We must do the same for all who want to sail monohulls no matter what our views on their boats. I hope the ISAF keeps the Olympics relevant to the vast majority of the sailing public, in boats that they can relate to. The Olympics does not need more professionalism or to be made less achievable for the general sailing public.

    cheers

    Phil Thompson
     

  15. Meanz Beanz
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    Meanz Beanz Boom Doom Gloom Boom

    I liked the Laser concept but I found them heavy, hard work in heavy air, treacherous in hard running conditions and not that fast. I once sailed a Banshee, similar concept better boat IMO but Beta v VHS. IMO their main strength is there strength as a class, that as you say Phil is a great plus for anyone wanting close cheap racing, I just ponder how the Laser got there, that's all. Thats JMO, anyway off topic... sorry.
     
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