Peoples Foiler II-the newest boats

JM 42---Another Unique Swiss Foiler-a Peoples Foiler?

I'm working on getting more details about this boat. For now I know that it was designed by Jean-Marc Monnard and foils were added in the last few months-very cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73JgJuRaZK0

 

Doug,

Perhaps you could attribute your posting of this photo and link as having come from Sailing Anarchy's, Dinghy Anarchy Forum?

See it all here: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=71099

It was not Doug Lord who scooped this bit of info, but it was another Doug... one very smart foiling guy by the name of Doug Culnane who first popped the scoop with the vid clip.


Perhaps the most intriguing new foiler in this sphere of doings is the, "When Pigs Fly", effort being handled by Rohan Veal. (see photo attached provided through the courtesy of OnFrozenPond at SA)

While he has not, apparently, conquered the People's Foiler dilemma, as set forth by our very own Doug Lord, he has, at least, gotten past the business of accomodating porkers who wish to experience the thrill. ;-)

 

JM 42 Foiler

Here are the specs for Jean-Marc Monnards boat:
13' single handled displacement dinghy JM42, 2001
hull length : 4.00 m / 13.12'
beam max : 2.00 m / 6.5
beam wl : 1.13 m / 3.7'
draft canoebody : 0.09 m / 3.5"
draft max : 0.95 m / 3.1'
displacement in measurement trim : 75 kg / 165lb.
keel and ballast : none
trapezes : none
mainsail area : 11.7 m2 / 125.89
fore sail : none
mast height above wl : 6.39 m / 20.9'
mast construction : rotating wing mast in high modulus carbon by Wilke
hull construction : sandwich glass epoxy pvc-core
built by : jean-marc monnard
architecture : jean-marc monnard, damien cardenoso & seb schmidt
certification : prototype

 

Does it have to be a mono?

Refer below taken from the Weta Marine FAQ page....http://www.wetamarine.com/FAQ.aspx

Is there a longer version of the Weta Sport Trimaran?
Currently the 4.4 is the only model and has total focus. Weta Marine may develop a longer version of the Weta or perhaps a high performance fully carbon version of the Weta 4.4 with hydrofoils.

Now i am new (extremely) to all this so I have no idea....

How will it work do you think? Will the rig need changing or would a "kit" involving foiled centreboard and rudder (and wand) be sufficient?

What will it do to the cost of what is already a USD10k boat?

 

Weta

Interesting post, thanks! The Weta is a great design-I've even thought of getting one. Adding "foil assist" like the ORMA tri's would be interesting and -with more SA- would allow the boat to fly the main hull providing the structure was ok. They would probably add a rudder t-foil as well... I'd bet that it would add at least two grand to the boat cost. If the structure wasn't ok for the new loads a new boat could be designed as a pure high performance machine.
I've often wondered why there are no(or very,very few) real super high performance beach cat killing small tri's around. Cost is probably the biggest factor.
Can't wait to see how Weta follows up there great first offering!
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Here are a couple of neat fairly small tri's-one is a surface piercing foiler (retractable foils)which requires no wands:

 

How to ruin a great design

$2000 for a lifting T-foil daggerboard and a T-foil rudder? Stop chewing the magic mushrooms!

I guess you are getting great prices from Fastacraft due to your long standing self promotion as poster child of foiling for the massive. I would have estimated that a rudder/daggerboard T-foil combo for the Weta would be more like $7-8000AUS -IF you could get Mr. Illett and folks to even consider building them due to their high workload on building Prowlers. Then you'd have to re-engineer the whole Weta design for new load levels and much higher strength (and much worse and frequent crashes).

You really aren't doing anyone a favor by underpricing the realistic cost/skills of foiling. You will disappoint many interested folks when they find out the truth. The added drag due to the T-foils would make the Weta into a dog in sub-foiling winds. The balance requirements of foiling the Weta, without dragging either ama would make this much harder to sail than a foiler Moth. Oh, I forgot ... you don't listen to anyone who disagrees with you, or those who actually sail full size boats. I can just see you there with your fingers in your ears chanting "nah, nah, nah, nah" continuously like a three year old.

LIfting foils on the Weta will take a broad appeal, broad wind condition and well-liked design and turn it into a one-wind-condition expensive piece of crap sail-able by about 0.001% of the people on the water.

 

high performance Weta

Hey Bistro
Instead of frothing angrily at the mouth a la Chris Ostlind and other flat earthers, check out the Weta site - they suggest themselves the thoughts of a larger and an all carbon Weta with lifting foils - take a deep breath man.

 

WETA foil assist

You're way off base! You didn't read my postvery well because I was talking about foil assist vs a vs the ORMA tris NOT a bi-foiler conversion like you talked about. I think the estimate for a production version of a foil assist 14' WETA is relatively accurate. Foil assist would increase speed and improve handling in heavy air. Depending on an engineering analysis of the current boat a larger boat with foils may be the best solution with foil assist or a full flying system.
A bi-foiler version is probably out of the question since the boat is too heavy.
A monofoiler with buoyancy pods(much smaller amas) would be a better way to go for the ultimate in performance.

 

Weak.

Try again.

 

Just checked. No froth. And my world view is curved. Thanks for the concern, but my lung function is normal as well.

All carbon Weta? Priceless! Well maybe not priceless but certainly far pricier than the current product. I'd bet that it will never happen - before you even get into deep cost analysis, it would have to cost as much as a carbon I-14 just from a materials standpoint. Beiker 5 I-14's go for $35,000 and (far) up - and that doesn't include a complex T-foil daggerboard with wand mechanism. Russel Miller / Phil Locker / Larry Tuttle / John Illett quality foils cost BIG bucks - have you actually looked into pricing? I have, and I've paid real dollars.

My issue with Mr. Lord's self-issued fatwa to promote foiling for the masses is that he never faces the reality of real-world cost and skill level. He without fail underprices and overpromises performance. His ongoing justification for his nonsense pricing is "a BIG company" could do it. Face it, this is not a volume market, and NO big companies are going to invest in a niche market with no serious volume. Fastacraft and Bladerider are about as big as it gets in a performance niche market. You won't see Laser/Vanguard, Performance Sailcraft, RS or any other of the the industry leaders joining this particular pilgrimage to capitalist Mecca. If it isn't moldable by infidels in Tupperware plastic with +1000 unit potential, it isn't interesting to them. This stuff is built by people who love the products and aren't in it to get shareholders rich.

Gary, before you get a seat at the foiling table, make sure you can ante up the real cash. The cheapest buy (US$ - not home build) foiling option is the Bladerider at $14,500 - Prowlers are a little more at $16,000. This is for a relatively simple monohull design. A "foil assist" carbon Weta-like tri hull with a larger rig could easily cost $30,000 or much more. And that isn't leaving a lot of profit (probably zero) on the table for the folks that build it. The reason the Weta is becoming interesting to the North American market is due to two factors - reasonable cost and the enthusiastic support and promotion of Meade Goudgeon.

It's dead easy on Internet forums to underprice and overpromise. Anyone expecting to stay in business for longer than six months better not. Or they better keep their night job delivering pizza to the good folks of the Florida coast.

 

Peoples Foiler

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B, your comments are completely off base and without merit for the most part. RS(LDC) is already embracing(to some extent ,anyway) the RS600FF foiler! ( http://www.thedailysail.com/ISM/art...D788025740A003070D6?OpenDocument&Page=1&Login)

Not only that, but the RS has PROVED beyond a shadow of a doubt the viabilty of a DESIGNED FROM SCRATCH Peoples Foiler.
What they've done is take an epoxy glass(not carbon) wide hull and converted it to a foiler that is very close to the Moth in performance. The RS600FF weighs at least 167lb(2.5 times what a Moth weighs). This is important because using what has been learned from the Moth a high L/b hull could be designed with buoyancy pods that would be much lighter than an RS(but still heavier than a Moth) and could use much more economical building techniques than one involving an all carbon hull. That boat could be significantly less expensive than a Moth or an RS. You speak of foil builders as if they were magic gurus's-any production sailboat company of the right size to build a Peoples Foiler could have foils designed for them that they do the tooling for. No boat company capable of launching a Peoples Foiler would have to rely on Full Force or Ilett for hydrofoils-that is just plain rididulous!
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Which brings us back to a foil assist WETA: this company could EASILY do the tooling for a foil set that would work-they wouldn't have to buy them from anyone. Foil Assist would allow a main foil on each side-either straight or curved with between 1/3 and one half the area of a full flying main foil and very easy for a competent tooler within the company to build. The structure would have to be looked at but my guess is that it is ALREADY strong enough for this option.
You have a peculiar and vastly uninformed way of looking at the potential application of foils in either a Peoples Foiler or WETA. You're just dead wrong...

 

Doug, RS/LDC had nothing to do with the RS600FF - as you well know. Lynton James and Full Force boats did all the design and development work. RS may have jumped on the bandwagon as a sales exercise AFTER all the real work was done. Nice mis-statement of facts, as below you refer to Full Force yourself.

RS/LDC proved nothing other than they were happy to have Full Force help them sell some boats. Give the credit where it is due, and don't bend the truth to prove your arguments.

Doug, I've not said you were ridiculous, vastly uninformed, without merit or completely off base. You have embraced "truthiness" in Steven Colbert's true meaning and your cost estimates are in 1950 dollars. I've not taken this personal - and remember, this is an internet forum.

You would have more credibility with your "audience" if you wrote with less hyperbole, less personal attack and more facts.

Cheers!

 

"I've not taken this personal"-Bistros. Right. Thats funny considering your previous two posts! As best I can tell I was responding to the assertions you made-and not characterising you personally. You know like me issuing a fatwa-not personal,right?
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The RS600FF certainly has proved that a Peoples Foiler could be built out of materials a lot less expensive than carbon.Their hull is wide and not ideal for a foiler. And an ideal hull could be built for a lot less weight/cost than either their boat or a Moth. And I find it amazing that no one has yet taken advantage of the improvements to handling and speed of "foil assist" on a boat like a WETA-after development the cost per boat of a system produced in house would be very modest.
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For a long,long time many people including some famous foilers have labored under the impression that no boat heavier than a Moth could foil,period.* Now we have the unequivocal PROOF that a boat weighing 2.5 times a Moth and built out of epoxy glass not carbon can not only foil but beat the Moth in some conditions.
* Of course their previous position has been eroded by the foiling 14's and now the foiling 18's!

 

Its Unanamous - I am confused

OK - This simple sailor is getting confused. Some say yay and others nay....

I am about to take delivery of my Weta (I hope - assuming Indonesian Customs dont hold it up waiting for a brown paper bag)..... if and when Weta Marine go the route above am I likely to be able to buy a "Foiler Weta conversion kit" or would it be a whole new boat? Current boat weight is quoted is about 100 kg (which means with me aboard about 210 kgs).

What would such a conversion kit include?
- Foils obviously - if I understand you correctly Doug new foils (curved?) to be fitted where? Plus a T-Foil rudder
- Larger sail area was also mentioned at some point?
- Would rejigging for the foiling kit preclude using the boat as she was originally designed (like when teaching your kids sailing)?

Bistros, can you explain further. Why one condition? How hard would it be to learn to sail it? Having sailed dinghies a fair bit (mostly lasers) I look at the foiling moths and wonder how you learn to do that - but it looks such fun I would love to try.

Foiling Weta - something for a new Weta owner to look forward to - or not?

 

Weta

Mud there is a huge difference between what I was talking about on the WETA and what Bistros was talking about. He was talking about adding a foil set similar to a Moth to the WETA. That would NOT work without HUGE modifications especially to the rig since the boat is way too heavy as it is for full flying foiling. It would need 168sq.ft.(15.6sq.m) of SA to fly with the same takeoff profile as a Moth-and that would require serious mods and be very costly.
I have described "foil assist" which would use a small lifting foil(and trunk) in each ama plus a t-foil rudder. The boat MAY be strong enough for this but their engineer would have to look at it. The gain would be dynamic lift on the ama so in stronger winds it didn't get immersed as far as it does now which would allow it to fly the main hull. The rudder t-foil would control pitching. IF the WETA guys did this you'd have to send your amas back to have the trunks installed,and buy a t-foil rudder and the two forward foils. DO NOT attempt such a mod yourself without,at least, the direct input from the WETA designer. These mods- w/o adding more SA- would be in the range I suggested IF WETA did the mods in-house. With the foil assist system the boat could carry more SA but then it would be likely that the structure would be compromised. A foil assist version would be easy to "depower" and regardless of the mods you added to it you could always remove the main foils and add the original rig(if the WETA system included a new rig) to tame it for teaching your kids.
I would suggest that you enjoy the boat as it is and only consider foils IF Weta offers an in-house package as a series of options.