Peoples Foiler II-the newest boats

Peoples Foiler

Chris,unfortunately(and I mean that sincerely) you just don't get it.....

 

OK, Doug,

If that makes you feel more comfortable, then it's OK with me. Perhaps, while you are in the middle of your glowing session, you could just take a moment to look around you on this Forum. Look at how many posts you have made and the remarkable array of very intelligent folks who have had issues with one thing or another, regarding this relentless vision of yours.

Now look at the posts you have made at Sailing Anarchy and the similar pattern of collective behavior that surrounds you there. Does this not strike you as peculiar when two very different groups have virtually the same response to your singular approach to the issues? Yeah, sure, there are cross-over posters who visit both groups, but they are the anomaly and not the norm.

Tell me something (and I'm speaking here to the other you that hovers over your shoulder) is there not a certain repetitive message you have been getting from not one, not two, but literally, dozens of well respected people in the various fields that would surround this whole People's endeavor?


You may resent this. I hope not, as I'm not at all out to get you, but that is the risk one takes to attempt to end the story telling session. Please give it come consideration.

 

But, Doug, I do get it and I will say to you agian, you try to distort the data to support your arguements. You still haven't explained some of the points I have raised. In particular, if the power to weight is better on the 600 and that is the most important factor, why does the 600 drop off the foils sooner than a Moth? It's not hard. If we accept what you say, namely that the 600 foils are OK, then the only reason can be because weight is a bigger factor than you are willing to accept.

However, the biggest falacy is that because the 600ff foils, you are right about the people's foiler. The 600 is a very special case. It is very light compared with most boats, with a sailing weight of only 50% more than a Moth. It has a high power to weight ratio and a sophisticated rig. he other factor you seem to miss is that in non foiling form, the 600 is a difficult boat to sail and, according to people who Im know who own them, they are really hard to sail with foils.

If you want to prove something, build a foiler that works. I do not understand why it is taking you so long. I don't understand why you gave up on your last project before even giving it a proper chance to perform. I don't understand why you are so obsessed with writing about something when it would be so much more fun (for you) to actually go foiling.

 

You're not reading what I write, Simon. I'll repeat it. The primary reason a 600 would drop off the foils sooner than a Moth is the fact that the rig is not as good as a Moth rig. The reason the boat would take off later than a Moth even though it has a better power to weight ratio than a Moth is that it has a wider hull, with more wavemaking drag and frictional drag for its size than a Moth for its size.
The most important statistic when looking at both boats-at least for potential implications for foiler design-is the fact that the RS600FF is 2.5 times times heavier than a Moth with both boats ready to sail minus crew. And the 600 foils very well having outpaced a Moth in some conditions.
The 600 demonstrates conclusively that there is a WIDE RANGE of effective weight available in the design of a succesful singlehanded foiler.

 

The real People's Boat, as it would apply to kids and the industry's need to get more of them sailing. has been there for the past two years, now. No speculation, no development time, no hassle with fiddly bits, no exhorbitant price tags and no objections from Mom and Dad about hanging with that bunch of foiling ruffians. ;-)

The OpenBIC... check this vid clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l6wIzg3SKI show it to your kids and see if you can get them to stop bugging you.

USD$2800 ready to sail, virtually indesctructable, very low maintenance, accepts a good range of body weights, easy to sail, can be beached easily and it is 5 minutes from car to water, ready to go.

We don't need no stinkin' foilers for our young people!

 

Peoples Foiler

Sam Pascoe was recognized in a Sail-World.com article(see results website below) about the Tiger Trophy sailied in the UK for being behind but close to Graham Vials in a Moth until disaster struck. Sam, a former Moth British National champion has adopted the RS600FF and is continuosly improving the boat. An excerpt from the Sail-World article:

"'Tiger Winner Graham Vials' This years Tiger represented the largest mix of classes ever seen and the usual contingent of 29ers and 420s was bolstered by an influx of B14s, Fireballs, Phantoms, Foiling Moths, Merlin Rockets and a plethora of other classes.

In race 1, Graham Vials put his memory of the Bloody Mary firmly behind him by lapping the majority of the fast handicap fleet in taking his first race win of the weekend in his Foiling Moth.

Interesting though behind him, it was another foiler, Sam Pascoe (Weir Wood) and an RS600 who was the only one close to him as a vast number of the fleet steadily succumbed to the 2 degree air temperature.


Unfortunately for Sam it was to be the only race he finished. After a collision while he was airborne, he didn't notice a severe wound in the bottom of the boat, until he landed that was, at which point the boat just kept going down, ending what could have been a solid challenge for the trophy. "
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www.tiger-trophy.com

 

Doug

Why focus on the race that Sam didn't finish. What is quantifiable about "behind but close"? Why not focus on the race he did finish, in which he was second on handicap and about 10 minutes behind? Anyway, whichever you want to take, the key was the fact that the 600ff was BEHIND. What part of that do you fail to understand?

As for Sam still improving the boat, that is incorrect. Lynton has stated they will be doing no more development and that the foiling package is now fixed. They have entered into a marketing agreement with LDC to sell both foil packages and new boats.

And considering how much sailing Sam has done compared with Graham, Sam really did have the advantage in that respect. So, Doug, why is it you cannot accept that the Moth is, in many cases, faster than a 600ff? In the bloody Mary and the one race at the TT, it wasn't even close.

 

Peoples Foiler

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I DO accept that the Moth is [so far] ,in many cases, faster than a RS600FF. And I celebrate it in the "Moth on Foils" thread. However, the performance of the RS600FF is really noteworthy because it is a singlehander that is 2.5 times as heavy as a Moth!! You appear not to grasp the significance of this and the implications it has for singlehander bi-foiler design.
The people that ran the Tiger Trophy said that prior to his unfortunate collision Sam Pascoe sailing his RF600FF had a real shot at the trophy. Try to understand what this means, Simon-it reveals an extraordinary potential that you and many others do not appreciate that can result in some new and exciting development in bi-foiler design.

 

Doug, Doug, Doug.

You persist in stating irrelevent information. The physics don't take into account just the weight of the boat. To calculate anything to do with foiling, you need the actual weight sailing, including crew. Considering how much of the all up weight of a Moth the boat actually is (1/3rd) and even with the 600, where it is only about half, why the obsession? The 600 is a remarkably light boat for it's size, rather than a really heavy boat as you seem to imply.

As for not understanding the potential, I find that hard to take from somebody who doesn't foil. I understand it only too well, clearly better than you do, because I know that every successful bi-foiler built is right at the top end of sailing difficulty and the physics cannot change that. The more foiling I do and the more boats that successfully foil, revealing the type of boat that is needed, the more I come to the realisation that foiling will never be a true mass appeal activity.

 

Peoples Foiler

Heres part of what the RS600FF site says about the boat:
" Why choose RS600FF?
Here are some reasons for you...

* Current top speed of 23.4 knots set by Sam Pascoe in Feb 2007. Sam’s speed record in the Moth is 26 knots, but he says: “I think the RS600FF will be faster….”

* Strict one-design. The RS600FF abides by the existing rules of the RS600 class – with the obvious exception of the hydrofoil package. When the racing circuit gets underway, sailors will not be allowed to customise their boats. The RS600FF is all about cost-effective foiling.

* Ease of launching. Liftable foils make this the most user-friendly ‘foiler’ on the market.

* Quick conversion. In just a few hours you can convert your RS600 so it’s ready for foiling. Want to switch back to the RS600 for some conventional sailing? No problem, the foiling package has been designed as a ‘bolt-on, bolt-off’ package which means you still have your standard RS600 any time you want it."
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What is also interesting is that this boat is only the 2nd bi-foil monofoiler to be put on the market since the advent of bi-foil technology. And it is not even designed as a foiler-it is a conversion. Just imagine what is possible with all that is now known -particularly as regards weight and a singlehanded foiler.

www.rs600ff.com
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DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND WATCH THE SAM PASCOE VIDEO ON THE RS SITE!

 

Peoples Foiler-whats new etc

For those interested how the various foilers compare :
M4 ADDED:
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FOILER WEIGHT

Here I'm trying to point to point out that the comparison of foilers of different weights WITHOUT considering POWER is ridiculous. Numerous experienced foilers(who should know better) tenaciously cling to "facts" that don't add up and hearsay about the role of weight in foiling. Few times if ever has anyone tried to explain why a boat like the RS600FF can be so similar to a Moth in performance yet weigh so much more(2.5 times more!). Many people seem content with old wives tales like" only the Moth can foil upwind" and similar absurdities. Thats too bad because foiler design and experimentation suffers when ignorance dominates the discussion.- as when anyone says that weight is the primary comparative measure between different foilers.WEIGHT IS CRITICAL WHEN COMPARING THE PERFORMANCE OF TWO IDENTICAL FOILERS but WEIGHT AND POWER must be considered together when comparing different boats.======================
Moth-
SA: 88.8sq.ft
Sailing Weight(includes crew): 220lb.
main foil area: 1.19 sq. ft.
Foil Loading(Lbs per sq. ft. at 80% max boat weight with crew):147.89
W/SA: 2.47lb. per sq.ft.(sail loading)
SA per sq.ft. of main foil area(a SA/ws ratio shortened to cover planform area of main foil only): 74.62
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For ease of comparison foil areas for the next two boats were arrived at by using the same FOIL LOADING as a Moth.
Only upwind SA is considered. Moth crew=154lb.RS crew=160lb.; 18 crew =3X160lb.
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RS600FF
SA: 131 sq. ft.
Sailing Weight(includes crew): 327lb.
Main foil area: 1.76 sq.ft.
Foil Loading: 147.89 lb. per sq.ft.
W/SA: 2.49 lb. per sq.ft.
SA per sq. ft. main foil area: 74.43
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M4
SA: 107 sq.ft.
Sailing Weight(includes crew): 259
Mainfoil area: 1.4 sq.ft.
Foil Loading: 147.89 lb.
W/SA: 2.42lb. per sq.ft.
SA per sq.ft.main foil area: 76.42
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Foiling 18
SA: 354 sq.ft.
Sailing Weight(includes crew): 854lb
Mainfoil area: 4.61 sq.ft.
Foil Loading: 147.89lb. per sq. ft.
W/SA: 2.41lb. per sq.ft.
SA per sq.ft. main foil area: 76.78
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Note the different weights of the boats . Then note the Sa/per sq.ft. main foil area-this is a comparison of Sail area to wetted surface when the boat is flying using just the planform area of the main foil for comparison-THEY ARE NEARLY THE SAME FOR ALL THREE BOATS. Note the W/SA is almost identical for all three boats. This means that all three boats will foil at about the same time adjusted for differences in rig efficiency(Moth probably the best) and for hull L/B ratio as a measure of early takeoff potential(Moth by far the best). As I just said there are other factors and details that will marginally affect performance but this clearly shows how close all three boats are in their ability to fly despite the fact that the RS is 2.5 times heavier than a Moth andthe 18 is 5.6 times as heavy as a Moth.
What counts is power to weight ratio as a first look. A more detailed look showing a comparison of SA/ws ratios for all three boats reinforces the accuracy of the power to weight ratio.

 

Rs600ff

Interesting article in the Daily Sail about RS600FF foiler developments:
http://www.thedailysail.com/ISM/art...D788025740A003070D6?OpenDocument&Page=1&Login
Linton Jenkins, the man behind the RS600FF, on the future of foiler development:
"All this talk of foiling trapeze boats does beg the question exactly how far could this technology be taken? “In about six years time I think that the whole set up will be down to such a fine art that it will be easy to sail. As soon as you do that you enter into two man boats, and away you go. I think we will see a two person class built for foiling although people might try them for a while in International 14s etc,” says Jenkins. With this in mind it is possible to imagine a world not too far from now where all the high performance boats are high performance foilers. Jenkins is clearly a convert and as he says; “Foiling is the only way of getting a boat to go quick, get it out of the water, end of story.”
Old and new RS600FF rigs:

 

Well the new 600FF sail means that is not true any more. That square top is not legal for the normal 600.
Also, I would be nervous about Linton's quote:
"In about six years time I think that the whole set up will be down to such a fine art that it will be easy to sail."
That makes it sound like they are going to continue to tinker with the 600FF, which is hardly in keepinh with strict one-design.

 

Peoples Foiler

Every new boat-particularly new high tech boats will run into mods they feel they need to make. Bladerider has done it well. I hope that LDC will handle their relations with the guys using the old stuff fairly.
The pressure must be on because the RS600FF is very close to Moth performance and I imagine they want to get the boat as good as possible before locking it in. Just heard from Jenkins himself that the new area is the same as the old area....