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Peoples Foiler / / RS600FF beats Moths!?

Check out this site for updates on the RS600FF includng a news blurb that Sam Pascoe sailig an RS600FF recently beat some Moths on foils. Hmmm-more details needed.
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Address:http://www.inqbator.org.uk/Default.aspx?alias=www.inqbator.org.uk/rs600ff
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Also check out Scott B's site(#2 at Moth worlds)
for some more on the RS600FF including what appears to me to be a not so subtle dig at the RS guys......
The quote:
" It looks like the FullForce guys have got that boat going pretty well....for what it is.
Now get back to making real boats people."
( editorial comment:Unfortunate....)
http://scott.projectsomewhere.com/

 

Peoples Foiler

Here is one of the leading candidates:
1)buoyancy pods
2)retractable foils
3)carries much more weight than a Moth:
(One is sailing and one is still just a glint in its owners eye)

 

I admire the dream scheming and the prototyping by whomever, Doug, but if you put this boat out there commercially with the name People'sFoiler.. the cognoscente are gonna rip you a new one. Once ripped in this fashion, unfortunately, there's a very high probability of being ripped by the potential buyers of said craft... resulting in low to non-existent sales.

If a BR goes down in the mid teens, then what's this gonna fetch, high teens to twenties? Man that's heady ***** for a People's anything and therein lies the rub.

And that's if the boat works flawlessly, can be assembled by a dunce and sailed by a neophyte. Steepness all around you. Best of luck

You notice I did not mention weeds, plastic bags or burger wrappers.

 

Peoples Foiler

Peoples Foiler is not the name of any current boat or even a glint in a dreamers eye: it is a concept that the people will choose.But it will have features like those described in earlier posts-it will be easy to sail ,affordable , beachsailable-and among other things,take off in lite air. It will take a huge investment by a big company to create a boat in any way worthy of the name.

 

You've been a little naughty there Doug. One picture is Simon Maguire's M4, which is (so far) a one-off which has been around a while (and appears to have problems - not the least of which would appear to be that sail which looks terrible). The other is your latest model. They are two different designs from two different designers - not one boat as you imply.
For what its worth though, I think your model looks quite nice and sincerely hope that you develop a full scale version. Keep up the good work!

 

""How about a mini version of the french tri foiler? make it about 23 feet long....""

While the French machine is a very fine design I think it will have been optimised for the one task. The angle the front foils are set will have been set knowing the ratio of the driving and lateral forces on the sails at the optimum relative wind direction for the record run. Performance on other points of sailing will, rightly, have been of no interest to them. I suspect that, on a broader reach where the lateral forces are smaller the foils will each be producing significant side forces in opposition to each other and that the induced drag will as a consequence be far higher than could be achieved with near horizontal foils.

 

It's interesting that at the first major event in the UK the Moth and RS600FF went "head to head", the Moth beat the 600FF by a substantial margin, substantial enough to overcome a significant handicap disadvantage and thus win on handicap as well.

 

Peoples Foiler

The RS600FF has a lot going for it-retractable foils and it can carry substantially more weight than a Moth. It has beaten a Moth and was just beaten by a Moth in the Bloody Mary(Moth 1st, RS600FF 12th out of around 250 boats)
www.rs600ff.com

 

Doug

You were told on SA that a 600FF didn't come 12th and that it was a clerical error that saw it in the results. Sam was the first 600FF in the BM and he was in the 90's. Remember that the race was a pursuit and therefore the Moth overtook the 600FF that had started significantly before it and then pulled out a lead. So, that means that in the 2 big winter races in the UK this year, in wildly different conditions, a Moth has hammered an RS600FF. Please stop basing your performance data on an 600FF publicity site when their claim was about an informal race. As has been shown, when the flag drops, the BS stops. When it has really counted, the results speak for themselves.

However, the RS600FF isn't a bad boat. It has proven to be a cheapish way for people to get into foiling, although it seems to be harder to sail than a Moth. The weight issue seems to be a matter of debate as one of the top Moths in Sydney is saied by somebody who weighs 90kgs. Strangely, he is quick in marginal foiling conditions! However, the bottom line is that about 25 people have converted old RS600's into foilers and to me, that is the key. To them, they don't care if their boat is faster or slower than a Moth. They now have the opportunity to do something Doug doesn't do - go foiling!

 

Peoples Foiler

I went by this: www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=139752 (Coroborated by Sail-World as well)
As for the RS600FF site and their claims of Sam Pascoe beating a Moth(s), I'm afraid I'll take what they say over what you say for the time being.
The fact is that the RS600FF carries more weight,is a bit easier to sail(I'm told) than a Moth and utilizes a major ingredient of a Peoples Foiler: retractable foils.
The boat is remarkable in that it was NOT designed as a foiler but is a conversion-like early Moths.
When an easy to sail "Peoples" foiler is introduced with some or all of the features mentioned earlier, it will most certainly be designed as a foiler from scratch-and that will make a huge difference.

 

And there lies your major problem. You base all your knowledge on what you read on the net, assuming it is all true.

However, I never said that the 600FF didn't beat a Moth. All I said is that you have to put it into context. It was an informal race and teh 600FF was being sailed by a top foilera nd the Moth wasn't. Surely the results at the Bloody Mary and Tiger Trophy are far more relevent.

And your scientific basis for this is? To date, it is true that most of the sailors who have bought foils for their 600's are heavier than most Moth sailors but I believe the heaviest is probably Andy Rice (he had the first) and he is about 90kgs. That is the same weight as a top competitive Moth sailor here in Sydney.

Then why did Andy Rice (see above) tell me that he was struggling with the technique to get the boat to foil upwind, in any wind? Yet, I have given trial sails to over 20 new Moth sailors, all with no experience and all of whom foiled upwind within a short time. Andy told me that he believes the one down side of teh 600FF is that it is harder to sail than is really required for mass adoption. I would love to know who told you about how easy, or otherwise, the 600FF is to sail.

So, Doug, here is the deal. I would rather believe what people tell me directly, rather than what I read on the net. I think you should too.

 

Peoples Foiler

Simon, I have no problem believing you at all IF you could back up anything you say with something, anything anywhere in print. I found three reputable sites that said Olly somebody got 12th in the Bloody Mary. Like, I said: for the time being that evidence trumps your hearsay-but I'm open-lets just see some real evidence.
As to which boat is easier to sail I have your hearsay and the websites' hype-not much to choose from.
It's funny: in my previous post I said the RS600FF has beaten a Moth and was just beaten by a Moth-so whats the argument? It is an innovative foiling solution and has some features in common with a potential Peoples Foiler. It is an interesting boat.
For the record I don't think a Peoples Foiler will necessarily beat a Moth-it will just be much easier to sail.....

 

So, the 600ff was beaten by a Moth, is about as hard to sail as a moth and isn't the People's Foiler. And your point is?

 

The standard non-foiling 600 is too hard to sail for mass adoption. However, Andy Rice told me that he found sailing the 600FF easier than waterstarting in a windsurfer - but then he is an excellent sailor and presumably not a very experienced windsurfer.
From a personal point of view, I am not convinced by the 600FF as I think foiling off a trapeze is a step (or two) too far for most.
I still think that it should be possible to adopt a Laser to foil - you just need large, fat foils. Okay, it won't be as fast as a Moth (nor possibly, a standard Laser), but it would bring foiling to the masses.

 

Andy actually said the same thing to me, particularly when discussing water starting a Moth. I don't think his winsurfing skills are very well developed! As you point out, he's not too shabby in a boat!

The biggest issues with adapting something like a Laser is 1. the extra loads and 2. the rig really isn't suitable. I doubt you would ever go upwind very well, or at least with very little pointing ability although some might say that would be no change!

I think the 600 was a good candidate to be converted due to (relative) low weight and a good power to weight ratio. In addition, it has a highly developed rig, which I believe is an important factor in this type of boat.