Peoples Foiler II-the newest boats

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Jun 21, 2007.

  1. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    This is going to be about new developments in monofoilers(other than the Moth) 20' and under more or less. Just saw this really interesting monofoiler on SA-still awaiting details:
    Foiler for "Normal" Sized People?? - Sailing Anarchy Forums- Post #141:
    UPDATE-6/22- boat apparently foils upwind and downwind and originates in the UK. Max speed so far 18knots. 10 hours sailing so far. About 8 knots breeze required for 87kg(191 lb.) crew to take off.
    Notice the TWO vertical fins at the daggerboard position:
    RS600FF-RS600FF - you'll believe a boat can fly!
    Address: Changed:5:03 PM on Wednesday, June 20, 2007
    Foiling 18-Here is last years thread.Stay tuned because there may be a new thread at any time since there are now TWO bi-foil 18's. Not really a PF candidate but proof that boats bigger than a Moth can foil well:
    foiling 18 - Boat Design Forums
    Address: 18
    The original thread is here:
    Peoples Foiler :aeroSKIFF™ / M4 - Boat Design Forums
    Address: Foiler
  2. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    What is a Peoples Foiler? This may be:

    I think a Peoples Foiler will have to take off in the lightest possible wind. Too much of the country has under 10 knot winds so the boat needs to take off in something like a 5 knot breeze. Top end speed doesn't mean much at all when compared to being able to fly in light air in many parts of the country.
    The second most important thing for any Peoples Foiler would be a very wide crew weight range-and it can be done. It may even be THE MOST IMPORTANT characteristic of a Peoples Foiler because it would be an extraordinary marketing tool as well as add a lot to the experience of racing these boats. Word of mouth alone would sell a foiler that had this designed in capability-more so than top end speed by a long shot.

    "Peoples Foiler" compared with a Moth:

    1)LOA Moth hull: 11' PF hull: 14.6'
    2) BOA Moth 7.1' PF: 12'
    3)SA Moth 86 sq.ft. PF: 143 sq.ft.
    4)Allup Sailing Weight:
    Moth: 206lb. with Veal on board
    PF: 340 lb. with a 220lb crew
    5) Mainfoil Area: Moth 1.07sq.ft.(2years old)
    PF: 1.72 sq.ft.
    6) Foil Loading/mainfoil only based on 80% of allup weight: Moth: 154 lb.sq.ft.
    PF: 158 lb.sq.ft.(variable area with tip extensions)

    7)Wetted Surface/hull only:
    Moth: 14.29sq.ft.
    PF: 21.6 sq.ft.
    a.length to beam: Moth: 10.1/1
    PF: 11.2/1

    b.SA/wetted Surface Moth: 6.01/1
    PF: 6.72/1

    c.SA/sq.ft. of mainfoil area:
    Moth: 80.37
    PF: 83.14
    The PF has BETTER ratio's than the Moth in every catagory and that means a boat using these numbers as targets and refined for the same amount of time a Moth has been would be at least as fast if not a bit faster WITH A 220 LB. CREW. And it would take off in AT LEAST as light a wind as a Moth does but because the class rules allow foil tip extensions it could be reconfigured in less than 5 min to take off even earlier.
    This design and these comparisons are predicated on the idea of using a 220lb max crew weight and a well designed, well thought out, effective weight control/ RM control system. But what if you took the extra weight off and a 160- 180 pounder got on this thing for some speed sailing. You'd have huge potential for some mind bogling speeds. Remember: this foiler would be designed to perform at least as well as a Moth with a 220 pounder on board.....
  3. frosh
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    frosh Senior Member

    Another one should bite the dust!

    Yet another attempt by Doug to push his absurd and obviously unpopular concept of the " peoples foiler". Doug, I suggest that you desist from starting more threads in attempt to convince all other forum members that we really need a foiler in our boat stable. I also suggest that you consider the meaning of the word- OXYMORON. Try this link then to assist.
  4. PI Design
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    PI Design Senior Member

    Foiling early isn't an especially difficult challenge is it? You just use big foils. Sure, top end speed may suffer but that's not a problem in a one-design class.
    The real problem is problem is making the boat simple enough to launch, sail, land and right from a capsize. And making it robust enough. I can't envision any foiler design that will ever equal a 'normal' boat on those scores, and it is those factors that make a 'peoples' boat. The laser must be the benchmark for any 'peoples boat'. It is simple to rig (albeit a lighter mast would be nice), simple to sail, simple to get back ashore, easy to right, cheap to own, easy to store and maintenance free etc.
    To my mind the biggest single issue to be resolved is rigging. There are too few places in the world where it is possible to drag a boat into waist deep water, tip it over and insert the foils from underneath. And then do this in reverse when you want to come ashore.
  5. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Peoples Foiler

    Pi, dragging a boat out to insert foils from underneath is a MOTH thing-it is NOT a characteristic of dinghy foilers. In fact the Bladerider has retractable foils -it is just too unstable to take full advantage of them. A Peoples Foiler with buoyancy pods solves that problem-among others.
  6. PI Design
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    PI Design Senior Member

    Hi Doug,

    I didn't realise the Bladerider had retractable foils. How does it work - is the hull recessed where the daggerboard slot is to let the foil be pulled up flush with the hull? And does that mean you have to store the boat with the daggerboard in the fully raised position (as opposed to removed from the hull)?
  7. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Peoples Foiler

    Pi, the foil just pulls up untill the t-foil joint hits the bottom. I haven't read of Bladeriders being left with the foils in the boat but I guess they could be. The problem is that the Bladerider design apparently requires that the linkages to the mainfoil flap be hooked up after the foil is lowered and the boat is too unstable to do that while sitting in the boat. On my first bi-foiler the linkages remained hooked up and the boat was trailered with the foils in the retracted position.
    I'm not positive but I think the RS600FF foils are retractable.
  8. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Peoples Foiler Philosophy-Doug Culnane speaks

    At this point the Peoples Foiler and what it might be is as much a subject of philosophy as anything else. Well known Mothie and techno-experimenter Doug Culnane has made some interesting comments on his blog:

    Doug Culnane's Blog
    Wednesday, 13 June 2007

    "It seams like the Moth Class is gathering momentum faster and faster than anyone could predict, (and there have been some what seamed like outrageous predictions). Are we seeing the start of a new sport like kite surfing? If we are then it means bringing the Moth to the masses, which is part of what the Bladerider is trying to do. (I think but it is not too clear to me.)
    If the masses are to sail Moths then we will have to see if they are ready for it. There is a big difference between a Moth and a normal production boat. The amount of material in the layup is totally different. There is no way to make a competitive Moth as robust as a Laser. So if masses of people are to get into hydrofoiling then they have to evolve to be able to handle these racing machines. Maybe this is what is happening.
    Maybe what is happening is the same thing that happened with Asymmetric spinnakers, trapeze boats, planing hulls, aluminum masts, plywood... If it is we will see 20 different one design production hydrofoil boats popping up soon. This will give people the benefit of one design racing, where you can race in a handicap fleet of 20 very different boats, and be held to ransom by your one supplier...
    In the mean time the Moth is continuing to show where it is at. Check out the worlds preview there will be around 70 boats from 15 different countries. There are loads of new boats, and designs. A lot of the boats are very different, I can not wait to go round the boat park with my tape measure, and camera.
    If you still do not think the Moth is on a big hype mode at the moment check the IMCA site stats at: These always peak around the worlds but lets see how much they peak around these worlds."

  9. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    So, OK....

    The Dougster (as in Culnane) invites us to go to the Moth site and eyeball the web hit stats in order to support the comments that the class is eye-popping in its growth.

    Well, the data for the period around the Worlds certainly are impressive, though the stats are fraught with potential misconceptions.

    Lots of hits do not tell anything about the numbers of actual individuals who "shopped" the pages during that period. They only indicate the numbers of times the pages were hit during the period. Monster numbers alone only indicate that the page hits, which could easily be accounted for by repeat visits by a group of interested followers, are being registered, not by whom and to what frequency for each individual. Day after day, these guys hit the pages numerous times and BAM... you've got what looks ike a storm of interest.

    Me? Why gosh, call me old fashioned, but what hits me more about the whole foiling enterprise in this web data is the fact that month after month the numbers are flat in the toilet for general interest. They only get to entry level phenom respectable when the Worlds took place and then, as you can clearly see, they head back to the nether regions to park themselves for another boring go-round till next year.

    This bad news is sobering for anyone willing to see past the fluff. I'm especially pointing to the rather severe dip in the hits in the month of December. Keep in mind that December is summer time in the SoHemi and Australia is the home of this class of boats. If folks in the OZ summer, when the sailing is warmest, are disinterested like these numbers show, then what does that say for the sport and its so-called phenom buzz?

    Just curious, but what kinds of hit data are available for the just finished AC event? Anybody have that? You want to see some numbers that blow the roof off? When that data comes public, you'll see why I refer to this foil class as obscure.

    Now here's one for ya... There's been lots of talk about the next generation of foiler and how it will instantly obsolete the current boats. There's gonna be an awful lot of pissed-off boys out there when they find out that the $14K+ hotrod they just bought is now no better than mid grunge level and they have to try to dump the current and relatively new ride in order to keep themselves from being tubed badly. An instant, thousands of dollars, loss in that fundamental element... cash.

    That's a sure fire way to chase those young, marginal spenders out of the sport and create a level of buzz that has F-You! written all over it. Oh there'll be hype about foiling all right... can't wait to see it.
  10. Trevlyns
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    Trevlyns Senior Citizen/Member

    Keep an Open Mind

    Quote Frosh [Another one should bite the dust!]

    I must cross swords with you on this one mate! ;) I also used to be a traditionalist but through these forums, and having an open mind, I’m beginning to see the light. :cool:
    Advances in sailing technology are inevitable and judging by responses to this (and other) threads, others agree too.
    Doug Lord, I applaud you! Keep up the good work lad. :p
  11. frosh
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    frosh Senior Member

    Hi Trev F. You can cross swords with me, no worries mate! I stick by my original contention that although the foiler Moth and any offshoots are an interesting side branch of high performance sailing evolution, the lookers will outweigh the buyers by a factor of much more than 1000 to 1. Compare this to Kite Surfing, where the numbers have grown hugely in the last 5 years, and a significant number of observers of others already doing it, will go and purchase their own kit, and get out on the water.
    Lets imagine for the sake of argument that the International Moth Class suddenly went into extinction. What interest then that more than 10 people world-wide, would fork out big money for an 11 foot boat, that has little social or fun sailing potential, and now (in my imagined scenario), no National or World championship for any one to try to cover themselves in glory. And this must also include the small number of professional manufacturers of Moths.
    Without the current International Moth Class, and I do not try to denigrate the fantastic performance increases in the Moth recently, I am saying that interest to buy or build a single hander hyper-expensive foiler dinghy, that is very complex, fragile, and unsuited for 99% of even experienced sailors, is not going to happen, and would be viewed as an oddity by the vast majority of small boat sailors.
    Therefore I believe that any need for more versions of Foilers that resemble the current Moths is completely unecessary, and would have almost a nil following, as would need to be reflected by purchasers parting with their hard earned. Culnane has his own agenda and interest in anything revolutionary and of extreme performance in certain conditions, due to his personal involvement in speed sailing. The entire sport of small boat sailing has contracted enormously overall, in the last 30 years, and bringing foilers of any shape is going to add zero to an already diminishing market place.
    Maybe some Yachting organisation should commission a committee of social psychologists to determine why traditional small boat sailing is becoming a smaller sport, in a world of increasing population, more affluence, and more leisure time than ever before. And we both agree that sailing is fun. I still say, let these clones bite the dust, as they have almost no role in the real world.
    BTW your signature indicates "Amateur Designer, and part time Lay-about". What percentage in your opinion, do you attribute to each aspect, now be brutally honest here!
  12. Trevlyns
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    Trevlyns Senior Citizen/Member

    Entirely valid points, Frosh; which proves the old adage “we agree to disagree” ;)
    My interest lies in adapting ideas into cruising designs for increased efficiency. I’m really too old for the ‘flying above the water at twice the speed of sound’ thing!
    Oh, and the signature thing… I reckon about 1 percent designer, 2 percent layabout and the other 97 percent working my butt off so I can build the boat I designed! :D
  13. TTS
    Joined: Jul 2007
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    TTS Senior Member

    Why don't I add something to this thread. While I do not fully comprehend all of hte physics behind foils, I am getting a better understanding daily on the issue. What i do have to offer though is a highly competitive Boyer MkIV A-Class catamaran that can be used as a trial platform for foils with some limitations. 1) the boat needs to be able to remain as an A-class when not in foil mode. 2) the foiler must be removable. 3) foil attachment points must coincide with the existing mounts, appedages and so on. So the offer is out there. The boat lives in NH, MA and RI.
  14. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest


    This is an idea posted by Aaron on SA:
    The boat is basically a rehash of Dr. Bradfields Rave with -apparently- a main only , extra wand and no ama/buoyancy pod. The mainfoils develop all the righting moment so the crew doesn't have to move a whole lot.
    Here is the SA thread:
    Buggy - Sailing Anarchy Forums
    8/12/07 check the SA thread for Aaron's latest update of his idea......
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2007

  15. rapscallion
    Joined: Oct 2006
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    rapscallion Senior Member

    How about a mini version of the french tri foiler? make it about 23 feet long....
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