Peoples Foiler-flying for the fun of it!

[Doug Lord]

Peoples Foiler 2010

Could this be the peoples foiler ?
Im in the process of fitting a rs600ff mfoiling kit to a blaze with a halo rig as an option. The boat is up on a cradle to allow the foil angles to be set. With the lack of any real teck knowlage im going for the settings used by the 600.

See how we go.

Matt

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Welcome to the forum ,Matt! I think I may have already posted about your boat in this thread: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/new-high-performance-monofoilers-25366-22.html post 322

Is that you? If so congratulations on what appears to be a first class effort-have you sailed yet? Keep us informed in this or the other thread-and good luck!

 

[matt b]

side view

 

[matt b]

infamy, infamy, they all have it infamy (carry on cleo 1964) . Blimy this sailing stuff gets about a bit. Yes, thats me. Now the sailing season has eased more progress will be made. Its all a bit slow as im not a boat builder etc . Im working by instinct and info off the internet. Linton at FF doesn't appear to want to take my calls and the 600ff site is dead. Im setting up with 164mm of forward pitch from the rear foil as per a diagram on the 600ff facebook site. the biggest challenge and delay is fitting the gantry to the transome. The silver cross bar is a 1st fabrication template. The rear of the blaze isnt square so difficult to fix to. Im gussing there will be compression and pull loadings on these points and pintle fixings ?

 

[Doug Lord]

infamy, infamy, they all have it infamy (carry on cleo 1964) . Blimy this sailing stuff gets about a bit. Yes, thats me. Now the sailing season has eased more progress will be made. Its all a bit slow as im not a boat builder etc . Im working by instinct and info off the internet. Linton at FF doesn't appear to want to take my calls and the 600ff site is dead. Im setting up with 164mm of forward pitch from the rear foil as per a diagram on the 600ff facebook site. the biggest challenge and delay is fitting the gantry to the transome. The silver cross bar is a 1st fabrication template. The rear of the blaze isnt square so difficult to fix to. Im gussing there will be compression and pull loadings on these points and pintle fixings ?

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I'm amazed that none of the 600FF guys responded to your posts on Y&Y!

Any closeups of the gantry close to the transom?

 

[matt b]

this is the closest i have. the aluminium angle needs to fix at either end to the transom. There is a difference of about 10mm inner to outer edge and 3-5mm vertically. also the area isnt very large. My thoght was to fix in place as is and then fill the gap with epoxy to give a solid fill to the gap.

 

[Doug Lord]

this is the closest i have. the aluminium angle needs to fix at either end to the transom. There is a difference of about 10mm inner to outer edge and 3-5mm vertically. also the area isnt very large. My thoght was to fix in place as is and then fill the gap with epoxy to give a solid fill to the gap.

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1) How have you set up the two foils: are they at a certain degree of angle(angle of incidence) relative to the static waterline or to some other reference point on the boat?
On some boats the rudder foil is at,say 0 degrees and the forward foil somewhere around 1.5-2 degrees.....This is absolutely critical! You must know how the thing is set up. You can arbitrarily choose a reference line-say a line between where the bow and bottom meet and where the transom and bottom meet will work fine. Then you can try sailing with the above angles and with adjustable foils make small changes on the water.
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2) can you adjust the angle of the main and rudder foil relative to this reference point when it is in the water? You should give serious consideration to being able to make small adjustments to the angle of incidence on the water. Time spent making that possible will save big time when you are first testing.
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3) If the gantry is fixed in place can the rudder still be adjusted so as to change the rudderfoil angle of incidence-I know-same as 2 but this is critical in how you fasten the gantry. I presume that the gap is with the rudder foil at its correct angle of incidence? Try to use a method of fastening that will allow a degree up or down of adjustment later-even if you have to move the whole gantry. Moving the rudder angle slightly while in the cassete is preferable as long as you can precisely control and maintain the angle.
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4) Try real hard to get a 600FF guy to help you-is there someplace you can drive where they race? There are a lot of real nice Moth guys-see if one of them will help...
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5) Are you using the 600FF wand set up?
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Can you tell me the exact foil areas(hydrofoils only) and the sail area you'll be using initially? And the boat weight with and without crew?(ready to sail in each case)
Good luck!

 

[ChuckieBlood]

That boat is not a People's Foiler. It costs too much and is too difficult to sail, among other problems.

Next contestant, please.

 

[matt b]

think again chuckie. Boat £600 foiling kit £900. Too dificult to sail , hows that then ?

 

[matt b]

This is the diagram im working to. The gantry has a screw adjuster on the lower rudder pintle attatchment point. The main foil has no adjustment once fixed. The top cassete (yellow bit) fixes pertectly into the center board slot, this is screwed down, there are two through bolts which pull the bottom cassete up. the plan is to fit the rudder vertical to the waterline, fix the main foil with the forward angle as shown. I will set the main foil area to where the centerboard would be when lowered, im gussing this is near a balance point. I can adjust the gantryvia the screw adjuster. The main foil, as its now fitted in a center board slot rather than a daggerboard slot will possibly have an inclination to move aft unless securly fixed. Top is screwed and i think the bottom cassete will need to be too. The wand is on the starboard bow linked via teleflex cable to the main foil, with the twist control for the aft foil.
blaze sail 10.3msq
halo sail area 11.6msq
hull 4.2m long, 2.48m beam racks out, hull rigged 100kg and crew 100kg.
will come back to you on the foil areas.
There is no reason it won't work its just the fitting which is a bit of a pain.
Look at 600ff on facebook there is a pic of a 600 two up.

 

[Doug Lord]

This is the diagram im working to. blaze sail 10.3msq
halo sail area 11.6msq
hull 4.2m long, 2.48m beam racks out, hull rigged 100kg and crew 100kg.
will come back to you on the foil areas.
There is no reason it won't work its just the fitting which is a bit of a pain.
Look at 600ff on facebook there is a pic of a 600 two up.

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Thanks for the info Matt. Looks like you have some info to work with. If I were you I'd spend whatever time it takes to make the foils adjustable in angle of incidence. I got in a hurry on my first boat and though I designed in adjustability I decided to skip the installation. That cost me a LOT of time and aggravation!
I would think that you should find a way to measure the relative angle between the two foils. In almost every case the main foil is at a nose up angle of 1.5-2 degrees relative to the rear foil. The forward(at the bottom) rake of the daggerboard has helped to prevent ventillation but the actual angle of the two foils relative to each other is very important to know, in my opinion. If you knew those angles relative to,say, the static(loaded) waterline (or similar reference on the boat) it would be helpfull as a double check.
Looking forward to the area info when you have time.
I think it is great that you're doing this and wish you good luck!

 

[ChuckieBlood]

think again chuckie. Boat £600 foiling kit £900. Too dificult to sail , hows that then ?

Thinking before, Matt.

That 600 squid Blaze you mention is a used boat out of the backyard and not a freshly minted production boat. Just how many of those do you think there'll be laying about? Toss out the cost of a brand new boat, complete and then add the foil kit and you have long ago left the realm of a People's Foiler.

Difficult to launch, transport and maintain compared to stock Blaze. Comments regarding the level of maintenance for an older boat compared to new version? Stiffness of used hull after x flex cycles and subsequent failure of setup and necessary hull rigidity?

Can anyone in the US get their hands on this boat for the same costs, or will they have to pay for a set of Blaze tools and then find a shop to build them to spec at a whole lot more than that 600 squid figure.

Still want to talk about a People's Foiler?

 

[BobBill]

People's Foiler Question

Very interesting give and take and information here.

If y'all don't mind, I have some very simplistic questions. I know zip of foils, save my aeronautical experience with wings and lift, etc.

One or two of the above illustrations seem like a Laser hull, foiled, which has me asking: How does the dagger board stay put under lift pressure?

How is the boat launched?

Will one foil at dagger board lighten load by moving hull upward, but not clearing surface? Less bow wave maybe, less weight to move...

If too basic, not necessary to respond.

Thanks.

 

[matt b]

Chuckie, how much do you want a peoples foiler for then exactly. What price makes it for the people. If you want a laser with its performance then pay used laser prices. If you want a boat with big grin factor then you will have to pay that bit more fof it. Sales volume and foil costs are always going to make a foiler cost more, we have to accept it.
The adapted 600-600ff is a prime example of what you can get for 2-£5000. Adapting a blaze is my attempt to see what will happen. Be more positive or nothing will change and develop.
Launching, well more to think of but, both foils retract daggerboard style to beach launch off a trolly. Sits on the existing trolly and road trailer and foils have split velcro covers so they can be left on the boat. Maintenance, well a bit more but you have solid carbon F foils so pretty bomb proof. Hull rigidity, probably less strain than crashing into waves in lowrider mode. You can pick up a very good early blaze suited to conversion for 6-700. Ive just bought another one for someone else to do up.
Want to foil you need to pay a bit more...
Next..

Matt

 

[matt b]

hi bob. Both foils are locked down with quick pins through the top of the board. Launching, put the sail up, launch off trolly, sail out, drop foils and lock down and go. Landing the reverse. No need to walk out with the boat on its side like the moth.
There are two foils, both have flaps on the trailing edge, like an aircraft wing. The main foil flap is controlled by a wand and teleflex cable to maintain ride height automatically. The rear foil replaces the rudder and provides initial launch control via a twist tiller.
its the same as the rs600ff system. Works well on the 600 but you have to trapeze as well !
Hopefully, hiking off the blaze racks should be easier to master.

matt

 

[Doug Lord]

Very interesting give and take and information here.

If y'all don't mind, I have some very simplistic questions. I know zip of foils, save my aeronautical experience with wings and lift, etc.

One or two of the above illustrations seem like a Laser hull, foiled, which has me asking: How does the dagger board stay put under lift pressure?

How is the boat launched?

Will one foil at dagger board lighten load by moving hull upward, but not clearing surface? Less bow wave maybe, less weight to move...

If too basic, not necessary to respond.

Thanks.

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BB- there are two main areas where dinghies are using foils:
1) "foil assist" like the I-14 and National 12 and some others. The foils on these boats are limited in scope though they do lift the boat a little and drastically improve pitch response. There is tremendous opportunity for designers to come up with foil assist solutions for monos and multies. The top three boats leading the "Route Du Rhum" now all use lifting hydrofoils for partial lift-"foil assist". There is a new foil system for keelboats called DSS-Dynamic Stability Systems that uses a retractable foil out to the side that lifts the boat a little and increases RM.
2) Full flying monofoilers were pioneered by the Moth class and there are many newer boats under development. For the last ten years development has concentrated on high performance foilers but one of the leading designers of the Moth class is now focusing on a new range of easy to sail foilers that overcome some of the drawbacks of the Moth -such as having to walk the boat out with the foils extended and very low "sea -hugging"(off the foils) stability and low pitch stability in some conditions. The RS600FF pioneered a practical retractible set of foils(along with Bradfields multifoiler Rave) but also tended to be a high performance boat. Newer monofoilers especially "Peoples Foiler" candidates will have a lot more attention paid to ease of handling , comfort and beach sailing as well as having the ability to foil in the lightest wind-5 knots or so- with possible unstayed rigs, sliding bench seats, buoyancy pods, wider hulls etc.
Sounds like Matt is working in the right direction and his effort could payoff down the line for a lot of people. I wish him good luck!