Peoples Foiler-flying for the fun of it!

[Doug Lord]

Comfort on a small foiler being a relative term, of course. This bench seat thing is unnecessary added weight and complexity to a boat that depends on being as llight as possible.

Has anyone here tried to smoothly move about on a set of rails set several feet apart... and not had the mechanism jam, repeatedly from off-axis movement?

===================
Not true........That is the myth many would have people believe about foilers.
A foiler can be designed to carry whatever weight you want it to carry. In a class like the Moth weight is critical because there is no minimum weight. For a "Peoples Foiler", comfort, ease of handling, retractable foils, an unstayed mast, reasonable cost, etc. are far more important.

 

[Chris Ostlind]

Not true........That is the myth many would have people believe about foilers.
A foiler can be designed to carry whatever weight you want it to carry. In a class like the Moth weight is critical because there is no minimum weight. For a "Peoples Foiler", comfort, ease of handling, retractable foils, an unstayed mast, reasonable cost, etc. are far more important.

What isn't a myth, Doug, is the fact that the heavier you make the boat, the bigger the foils and the rig need to be to get it flying. Those two expanded design elements then require more structure to handle the loads. All of this is added weight and even more important... it's added expense.

The more junk you stick on a boat the further it moves from achieving, in your own words, "...reasonable cost, etc. are far more important"

Apparently, it's going to be just fine to have a boat of your design that nobody at the entry level can afford.

Lastly, since both Terry and myself have addressed the issue, perhaps you could see your way clear to responding to the inherent complexities of your sliding bench seat? Maybe you could produce a clear drawing of same that shows the mechanism that is going to not add weight, will be easy to use along with jam proof and will not add expense over the price of a simpler design solution?

I'm afraid that you have bought your way into the ever-deepening design spiral of trying to be everything to everyone.

 

[Doug Lord]

Sliding seat

I'm not sure how I'll do it yet. There are a number of good ideas I'll try-this is
one:
--using teflon or delrin tube(attached to each end of the seat) combined with highly tensioned line covered with a smaller teflon or delrin tube in a design that should allow easy sliding regardless of crew position. Teflon or delrin "pads"(tracks) just inboard of each crossarm will allow the seat tube to slide guided by the tensioned line. The tubes on the seat ends will be long enough to prevent seat binding regardless of crew position. I've done a lot of sliding devices over time-I think something like this will work.
A track down the middle, like Terry suggested, could be used as well- but may be unnecessary with this system.
Maximum sliding distance 4.5 to 6' depending on the boat.
I'm confidant that with a lot of work and experimentation I can get close to the ideal system that is easy to slide, comfortable, light and relatively inexpensive.

 

[Chris Ostlind]

How much do two seats, sliding hardware and control lines add to the weight of the boat compared to a basic form such as easily obtained tubes and tramps?

How much extra expense is being added to a more basic craft?

How much added maintenance will there be keeping a sliding system clean and operational?

All of your design choices regarding this kind of sliding seat need to be multiplied by two. How does that doubling of expense, weight, maintenance and overall hassle, factor into what should be a simple to use and affordable boat?

If the only tool you have at your disposal is a hammer, then all the solutions will wind up looking like nails, even when something else is a much better application for the design brief as presented. You can draw and even build a boat such as this and purport it as a PF, but what good is an overly complex entry level boat when the target market can't afford to buy one?

A brand new Laser runs in the $5-6K range. It's easy to handle, maintain and sail. That's the target market on many levels. If this boat comes in at the $12-14+K range, which is where I think it will eventually wind-up, then you've completely missed the market and will have produced a one trick pony.

 

[Doug Lord]

Post #1:

yes, it is a revolution

One of the most interesting developments about to be unveiled is the new foiler or foilers from Andrew McDougall(AMAC)-designer of the Bladerider and Mach II Moths. The main characteristic of this boat, as I understand it, will be ease of sailing. When he releases more information it will be available here-you can count on it. He is the most widely known individual foiler designer to speak to the need for an easy to sail foiler to allow people to get into foiling without the hassle involved in some of the high performance boats-I'm looking forward to his ideas.
Since the Peoples Foiler concept was first conceived by me years ago there has been lots of foiler development-mostly in the Moth class but also:
1) Mirabaud the largest 2 foil monofoiler currently sailing-about as fast as a Moth according to Thomas Jundt-the developer.
2) R Class foiler-the second 2 person bi-foiler ever developed in history,
3) and more: see New High Performance Monofoilers
My conception of a Peoples Foiler follows but it is critical to note that the people will define what actually becomes a "Peoples Foiler" not me but I suspect that the NUMBER ONE ingredient will be the sheer unadulterated fun of flying! Speed is not critical-ease of sailing and fun are the priority.
=================

Some Potential Characteristics of a Peoples Foiler 2010:

--
1) Category One-Full Flying
a- I have always conceived of a Peoples Foiler as an easy to sail monohull foiler using just two hydrofoils because of the simplicity of such an arrangement.
--
b-the boat should probably be capable of sailing well with a 200-220lb single crew and be designed, perhaps, to use a form of weight equalization-allowing a wide crew range from perhaps 120lb-220lb, if possible-or "lightweight" and "heavyweight" versions. And/ or, a two person boat that could also be foiled singlehandedly.
--
c-beach sailable: must have retractable foils and excellent sea hugging stability-with buoyancy pods.
--
d-reefable rig, perhaps similar to the High Performance RS600FF, easy to do.
--
e-foiling characteristics:
---1- takes off in 5 knot wind-many areas of the world are very light air most of the time-it is critical to be able to foil in those conditions.
---2- excellent pitch characteristics-no crashes. Foils could be designed to have designed in/removable spoilers that allow light air takeoff with reduced top speed and reduced sensitivity to altitude control issues. A partial/full manual control system may not only be fun to sail with-it could be designed and developed to be sailed manually or automatically or a combination of both. Use could be made of variations of the Howes foil for the ultimate in two foil altitude control simplicity.
---3- low and /or variable altitude settings.
--
f- Emphasis on extreme crew comfort with the possible use of lightweight sliding bench seats to make it easy and fast to move side to side.
=============
2) Category 2-Foil Assist
a- there are already boats like the I-14 , National 12 , Paul Riccelli's RYD14.6 and probably others using one form of "foil assist"-a rudder t-foil or similar type foil. But this is a huge untapped area of monohull design where the gains are potentially increased performance and better handling with minimum sized foils . The foils don't lift the boat clear of the water but do reduce the wetted surface of the hull and can enhance pitch performance and handling upwind and downwind .
Lots more potential for development here in all sizes of boat.
See pictures below of Jo Richards National 12 using a t-foil rudder AND a trim tab on the daggerboard. Interestingly, the 12 t-foil rudder can be partially retracted for light air sailing to get rid of the hydrofoil yet leave enough rudder for control. Very innovative! Also, check out the retractable bow foils/flaps on "paradigm"...
--------------------
http://www.cowes.co.uk/zonexml/story?story_id=5509;cp=0#
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National 12, retracting rudder: http://www.national12.org/adverts/rondar_paradigm2_flyer.pdf
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http://www.mcdougalldesigns.com/McDougall_Boats_Foils_Sails.html
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PIX: "Tomahawk Foils"(Howes foil) on proto/ Jo Richards National 12 with T-foil rudder and trimtab on daggerboard from cowes.com(above),N12 sailing by Tim Hattersley from sail-world.com and National 12 bow flap/ foils(paradigm),RYD 14.6(Paul Ricelli): (see original post for pictures)

==========================

Hope to hear about AMACS new boats very soon........

 

[CutOnce]

==========================

Hope to hear about AMACS new boats very soon........

Wow, do you have a dead thread exhumation reminder system?

2010 seems to be running out pretty fast, and the people's foiling radar screen is .... empty. A couple new private Moth builds, a project cancellation and no new general population targeted commercial efforts. Bladerider's sunk apparently, and Fastacraft doesn't seem super active.

Took a glance through the various and sundry McDougall sites and didn't find any encouraging, visible progress on the peepFoil front. Have you heard anything?

Not trying to be negative here, but there doesn't seem to be the exponential foiling growth in the industry happening. Has the revolution got all the willing revolutionaries already? It just seems like things have reached a peak, and then stabilized somewhat, rather than growing at the same rate it was when Rohan Veal was actively driving the foiling bus.

--
CutOnce

 

[Doug Lord]

Peoples Foiler

Up to now monofoiler development has been on high performance boats. So much so that many people think that the characteristics of some of these boats are the way it has to be with all monohull foilers-far from fact. The idea that some of these boats, like the Moth, have to be walked out to deep water
or sailed only by the fittest or are hard to keep upright are myths when applied so as to describe what is possible with monohull foilers.
That's where AMAC comes in(I hope)-these new boats are designed to allow an easy to sail foiler which will probably also mean easy to transport, launch and rig. They will help to change the preconceived notions of what a monofoiler is that has been nurtured during development of the Moth and a few other boats.
And they and boats like them will take the revolution to a whole new level.
And the foiler revolution doesn't have to be limited just to monofoilers-but I think, generally, that a monohull foiler with just two foils has the potential to be faster, less expensive and easier to transport than multihull foilers. But a properly designed multihull foiler can be exceptionally easy to sail and very fast as I think the new Bradfield 18' Osprey will illustrate.


Paul Riccelli's RYD 14 footer with "foil assist" rudder foil and Mal Smith's Laser with a unique foil system that does not require an altitude control system(wand):
(click on image)

 

[ChuckieBlood]

Wow, do you have a dead thread exhumation reminder system?

2010 seems to be running out pretty fast, and the people's foiling radar screen is .... empty.

I'm wondering about this too CutOnce. Not a peep for many months and now we see recycled material as if it had a freshness about it.

Up to now monofoiler development has been on high performance boats. So much so that many people think that the characteristics of some of these boats are the way it has to be with all monohull foilers-far from fact.

If someone has a significant issue with the boats being developed by the people who know about foiling, then all you have to do is design and build your own and create something new for the sailing world. CutOnce and I both agree that nothing has come bouncing out of anybody's shop. It is more than safe to assume that it is not possible at this point, or nobody really cares about this slice of the very tender market.

The idea that some of these boats, like the Moth, have to be walked out to deep water or sailed only by the fittest or are hard to keep upright are myths when applied so as to describe what is possible with monohull foilers.
That's where AMAC comes in(I hope)-these new boats are designed to allow an easy to sail foiler which will probably also mean easy to transport, launch and rig. They will help to change the preconceived notions of what a monofoiler is that has been nurtured during development of the Moth and a few other boats.

Have you ever sailed a Moth, Doug? If not, how would you know what it takes to sail one and if there is a possibiity to build a boat that can be sailed easily by a total newbie to the sport?

Hoping that AMAC produces this boat, while resurrecting a dead thread to that end, is a pointless effort. You might want to direct your energy elsewhere. Nothing will change preconceived notions until something is physically before the sailing community that works, works well and can be used by beginners with no prior experience. Everything else is about guessing and it's not very good guessing in any event.

And they and boats like them will take the revolution to a whole new level.
And the foiler revolution doesn't have to be limited just to monofoilers-but I think, generally, that a monohull foiler with just two foils has the potential to be faster, less expensive and easier to transport than multihull foilers. But a properly designed multihull foiler can be exceptionally easy to sail and very fast as I think the new Bradfield 18' Osprey will illustrate.

Right off the top, how much will Bradfield's 18' foiler cost, no matter how easy it is to sail? No, that's not going to work for a beginner as the entry level cost is too high to endure and not worth the risk.

As to easier to sail and use than another design type; you won't know that until someone produces a similar type of boat in both design types and tests them against one another. To talk about the possibilities at this point is still simple guessing and nothing more.

I work as an industrial designer for the transportation industry and everything that you have said would be quickly dismissed as poorly conceived baloney should you bring it before a peer review group. I also sail competitively in a very tough class of boats so my knowledge of boats is sufficient to know when a product is way too edge oriented to make any sense.

I'm open minded to the possibility that something as you describe could be conceived and built but there is nothing here now and from what I read, it isn't on the horizon either. How about you, Doug? Why not build a complete boat, prove that it works and stuff it down the necks of all the big boys in foil technology land?

 

[Doug Lord]

1) Have you ever sailed a Moth, Doug? If not, how would you know what it takes to sail one and if there is a possibiity to build a boat that can be sailed easily by a total newbie to the sport?

2)Hoping that AMAC produces this boat, while resurrecting a dead thread to that end, is a pointless effort. You might want to direct your energy elsewhere. Nothing will change preconceived notions until something is physically before the sailing community that works, works well and can be used by beginners with no prior experience. Everything else is about guessing and it's not very good guessing in any event.


3) Why not build a complete boat, prove that it works....

==========
1) No, but I have designed ,built, and foiled my own 16 foot monofoiler several years ago. Made some mistakes with it but it did foil and I learned a whole lot including that a foiler doesn't have to be high performance torture chamber to be fun. Have sailed the Rave for many hours and it proves the same thing except that it has fairly poor light air performance because of weight. Designed and built the worlds first production RC Sailing foiler, the F3, which simply amazed me(and a few others) and kick started my interest in foilers.
--
2) That is flat absurd: I know for a fact that AMAC is developing more than one boat in an effort to produce an easy to sail accessible foiler. And I know from my own experience that such a foiler is possible and only a matter of time. AMAC has the ability to pull together the resources necessary to do this right. I'm looking forward to it. Who said this thread was dead-you-cutonce? Funny-not even close: because the most important part of the foiler revolution is yet to come and the boats and ideas featured here are but the tip of the iceberg in development work regarding the "user friendly" application of foils to popular sailboats.
-----------
3) Working on it.

 

[CutOnce]

==========
1) No, but I have designed ,built, and foiled my own 16 foot monofoiler several years ago. Made some mistakes with it but it did foil and I learned a whole lot including that a foiler doesn't have to be high performance torture chamber to be fun. Have sailed the Rave for many hours and it proves the same thing except that it has fairly poor light air performance because of weight. Designed and built the worlds first production RC Sailing foiler, the F3, which simply amazed me(and a few others) and kick started my interest in foilers.
--
2) That is flat absurd: I know for a fact that AMAC is developing more than one boat in an effort to produce an easy to sail accessible foiler. And I know from my own experience that such a foiler is possible and only a matter of time. AMAC has the ability to pull together the resources necessary to do this right. I'm looking forward to it. Who said this thread was dead-you-cutonce? Funny-not even close: because the most important part of the foiler revolution is yet to come and the boats and ideas featured here are but the tip of the iceberg in development work regarding the "user friendly" application of foils to popular sailboats.
-----------
3) Working on it.

Dr. Sam Bradfield clearly claims on his website that HIS FIRM designed the 56" F3 foiler (quote: "DESIGN, ENGINEERING & FABRICATION OF SAILING HYDROFOIL SYSTEMS FROM 56"). Who's playing fast and loose with the truth here? Who designed what? I can understand how someone might ask a more learned professional to "help" with a design, but I can't quite agree with the person then failing to credit the more learned contributor. Are you failing to acknowledge Dr. Bradfield's contribution?

Keep in mind here I am quite certain Dr. Bradfield would not take credit for work he did not perform, and this post is not questioning his substantial pioneering work in the foiling field. He's earned his credibility and respect.

In regards to thread activity it seems that inactive threads with no posts for months that get revived by the thread starter posting no new developments are effectively dead by Internet standards.

If you are indeed "working on it", please bring us all up to date! When do you expect to launch? How well have you met targets to date to "hit" your numbers as frequently posted to backup design claims? I for one will be very excited to see this ground breaking design on the water - and it will serve you well to silence all the negative folks.

I'm a fan of your work, but I'd like to see more effort into actual demonstration of your ideas, rather than putting up a spirited verbal defense without getting on the water.

--
CutOnce

 

[Doug Lord]

Dr. Sam Bradfield clearly claims on his website that HIS FIRM designed the 56" F3 foiler (quote: "DESIGN, ENGINEERING & FABRICATION OF SAILING HYDROFOIL SYSTEMS FROM 56") . Who's playing fast and loose with the truth here? Who designed what? I can understand how someone might ask a more learned professional to "help" with a design, but I can't quite agree with the person then failing to credit the more learned contributor. Are you failing to acknowledge Dr. Bradfield's contribution?

Keep in mind here I am quite certain Dr. Bradfield would not take credit for work he did not perform, and this post is not questioning his substantial pioneering work in the foiling field. He's earned his credibility and respect.

In regards to thread activity it seems that inactive threads with no posts for months that get revived by the thread starter posting no new developments are effectively dead by Internet standards.

If you are indeed "working on it", please bring us all up to date! When do you expect to launch? How well have you met targets to date to "hit" your numbers as frequently posted to backup design claims? I for one will be very excited to see this ground breaking design on the water - and it will serve you well to silence all the negative folks.

I'm a fan of your work, but I'd like to see more effort into actual demonstration of your ideas, rather than putting up a spirited verbal defense without getting on the water.

--
CutOnce

----------------------------
I designed and built the F3 with lots of help from Doctor Sam. My old website had a two page tribute to him. He did NOT design it and asked my permission to put the link on his site-we took the microSAIL! site down two years ago. The information I got from Dr. Sam after working with him one whole summer testing a model he modified (using one of my large tri's) was relative to the angle of incidence of the main foils vs the rudder foil and the designed load of the two main foils. Every item on that boat including the foils(featuring a short flap that you won't see on any other foiler of his) the wand mechanism, the Wing Tip Rig, the rig positioning, the amas and ama buoyancy etc etc was 100% designed by me-again, thanks to what I had learned. I appreciated Dr. Bradfields help and the fact that he allowed me to participate in the SKAT model testing. He sparked my interest in hydrofoils and I owe him for that -I will always be grateful for his help. I helped him by building two Flyer Cubed tris and by helping with the RC stuff. And he helped me learn how this stuff works-the F3 was the test of what I had learned. From the begining if he got interest in models he refered it to me-he did not want to build models-I did and we helped each other.
My F3 was featured in Model Yachting and was the first production RC sailing hydrofoil ever built.
--------------

Pix: the white hulled foiler is one that Dr. Sam and Tom Haman modified using my Flyer Cubed platform-it was to test the SKAT foil system. The foils shown are my experimental partial span flaps that worked real well. The tri they modified was 72" LOA. The white and red Flyer cubed prototypes sitting on a dock with Dr. Sam in the upper left hand corner as a measure of the size of these models:

 

[MalSmith]

----------------------------
The foils shown are my experimental partial span flaps that worked real well.

Doug,

What is the theory behind the short flap?

 

[Doug Lord]

At the time I had been working with models a long time and knew from Graham Bantock that the T/C on the foils should be around 6-7%. I was concerned that the flap would bind when the foil flexed with such a thin section-Bradfield had that problem on the full size Rave. I wanted to use a "solid state" flap made of mylar that could be laminated into the foil when the foil and flap were laid up simultaneously-and which would bind easily with flex. So the partial span flap was the solution and it worked real well.
I tried the same thing on the 16 too-for the same and a different reason: I wanted to see how small a flap would work and if the short flap would allow the rest of the foil to dampen response to the manual control system. Because of other problems I had I'm not sure of the answer-the manual control system worked although initialy it was a ***** because of slack in the cable. I don't think there is much question that if you want the highest speed from the foil a full span flap is the best answer-at least full size.
Early Moth foils used the same kind of hinge("solid state") on full span flaps and some had problems under load with the flap binding-I have one of the early ones that did bind.
Dr. Sams solution was to auger out the hinge mounting holes on his aluminum foils so there was a little play with the Rave hinge pin-that worked as well.

pix- main and rudder foil on my 16' foiler

 

[matt b]

foiling blaze/halo

Could this be the peoples foiler ?
Im in the process of fitting a rs600ff mfoiling kit to a blaze with a halo rig as an option. The boat is up on a cradle to allow the foil angles to be set. With the lack of any real teck knowlage im going for the settings used by the 600.

See how we go.

Matt

 

[matt b]

foiling blaze/halo