Peoples Foiler :aeroSKIFF™ / M4

Well, it's certainly ambitious to get the hull design, especially a hull design that seems to be so vastly different in terms of rocker (the only thing we can get an idea about) from existing proven foiler hulls, right with just two prototypes. People like Morrison and Bethwaite, who have years of experience in skiff types, take more than that to make much smaller steps. Personally I would have thought anyone chucking $120k around would want to see a working example, even a rough one, but I'm a novice in such matters.

It's going to be hard for you to catch up to the vaguely similar project that a famous name is already working on, but as a layman his foil layout looks a bit like something the Moths have tried and discarded.

 

Peoples Foiler -aeroSKIFF 14

CT-I am working on my own on a "backyard project"
the Trapwing 17 that uses movable on deck ballast and foils off wind initially. This will use a lot of new stuff and may serve the purpose you suggest as well as being more suitable to me personally.(not a Peoples Foiler candidate)
Trapwing 14-High Performance 14' Keelboat(SDB)-Final Design Conception - Boat Design Forums
Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12131
Sounds like you were describiing a foiler project Steve Clark told me about a while back. He was going to use a long main hull like an A class hull with racks and surface piercing foils-three foils in total.The Moth Class has ruled that configuration illegal. Brett Burvil's version was fast off the wind and slow upwind compared to a bi-foiler. Haven't heard anymore recently but any new Peoples Foiler project will
be mentioned here when I hear about it.

 

Low end

Double it and that might get you some actual breathing room for non-anticipated development issues and all the stuff that appears out of nowhere no matter how well you think you've got it together.

You also need a marketing and spares budget or the result of the expenditure is toast, dead in the water. How about a travel budget to demo the boats in several sailing centers around the country (a couple of times)... and who's going to be the driver?

This dude or dudess has to be extremely fit, hopefully pleasant to look at and exceptionally well-spoken. Helps a lot if they are known in the dinghy sailing world with an established following. That person will cost money and they'll likely want it up front. With all due respect, Doug, that should not be you.

Nope, a quarter million just to open the argument or you will be doing it on the cheap wherever you go.

 

No, it's not Steve's boat.

Edit - nor is it Moth-type surface piecer

 

Peoples Foiler- candidates and others

Here's a list of all the boats(projects) under 20' that I know have foiled or that may foil in the future:
1) M4- the unquestioned leader as of tonight.
2) Bladerider-may or may not be a Peoples Foiler
with pods I'd say yes; with pods and the big main they talk about I'd say definitely.
3) RS 600- has foiled-no other info
4) I14's- several have flown but full flying foil systems are illegal so a spin-off might qualify.
5) 49er- somebody somewhere has a set of Fastacraft foils specifically for this boat but
that's all I know.
6) Aussie 18 reported by Baronvonwhatever appeared to have surface piercing foils and would be an unlikely candidate.
7) Steve Clarks 17-18 with surface piercing foils-maybe but unlikely with those kinds of foils.
8) Ct's mystery boat-unlikely if using surface piercing foils.( he said it used a foil system discarded by the Moth class if I understood correctly)
9) aeroSKIFF 14 -project stalled but not dead; close to the best if properly funded and succesfully executed.
10) Hoot-has some potential; see previous post # 67 and DA....

Thats a lot of Peoples Foiler wanabe's-someone, somewhere, sometime from now will put it all together-count on it! And there may be others I don't know about but when I do they'll be written up here.... And good luck to us all......

 

Once more for emphasis:

 

For Emphasis...?

Since this is now entering the ridiculous, having long since passed the sublime, I really wonder just what you hope to accomplish with a series of patents for transitory technology besides feeling like you are, "very cool in a personal, brag about it at a BBQ", kind of way.

From my experience, this is simply throwing money away at a moving object, hoping it will somehow stick.

While you are spending dough on an intellectual properties attorney (and it's gonna be a big chunk of dough, along the lines of 10% of your budget if you pursue one patent) the potential competition will be dosing-up on your product, evaluating it for commercial feasibility and building themselves right around your tasty, struggled-over, paid-for patent. BAM! your patent is worthless and worse, while you were all depressed about the shenanigans, the other guys have kicked your collective butts in the marketplace.

Save the patent hassle for the next biological product that cures cancer and sell it to a huge company that has the legal department to chase all the knock-offs... if it becomes successful.

The absolute best expenditure of cash in the pursuit of a small boat for the marketplace is not with attorneys. In fact, it’s in the development of the next great cheeseburger boat for the sailors of the world. Drop the patent search documents and step away from the law office while you still have a running chance.

This mention of filed patents in this regard only shows how one can get all strung-out on the self importance aspects of building boats. Please ask around to some of the established boat companies and inquire as to how often they can afford a patent process. If your stuff actually works, you're gonna get copied, it's as simple as that. No harm, no foul. Development being what it is, I would bet there are several arguments for copying of the efforts of others right in your own design.

Doug, you can't even raise the capital for the initial enterprise. How are you going to pay the retainer fees to pursue the possible patent offenders of this super cool boat? Have you ever retained counsel for what amounts to a goose chase? Do you really have any idea how much money you are talking about? Have you ever tried to chase a boat builder in China who is perfectly knocking-off your new product? Have you any idea how much money it takes to visit and then revisit all your dealers and try to convince them to not purchase the cheaper, higher margin, boat from China, all while your production facility is dead in the water with laid-off workers?

Quarter Mill... minimum... to get in the game. And that’s USD$ money.

You can blow me off on this list, but if this thing ever gets off the ground, you'll be wishing you listened to logic rather than your inner muse.

 

Once more! Why? We read it the first time!

Doug, If you are trying to teach us "anti-foilers" (which we are not BTW) the wisdom of your approach to the Aeroskiff project, just quoting an entire posting of your own is not the way to go about it.
You need to be countering any worthwhile arguments of your critics and illustrating the reasons why your ideas will work by elaborating your reasoning further.
You must know the realities of this life, and the dude (Bertram) that posted yesterday a thread to the effect that: If he was to design a boat would a large manufacturer want to buy the design and mass market his boat, and pay him be giving him a freebie. Problem is that he is a newbie amateur designer, and secondly, Ferretti, or Riviera Boats, don't exactly need his expertise.
I apologise hereby to Bertram, if this sounds bad, but the example is so pertinent to you, Doug, that I had to give it as an illustration.
I read your posting re- Sailing Anarchy discussing the fastest dinghy and none of the Moth guys speaking up. Your tone was one of a jilted lover undergoing shocking pains of the heart! Are you sure you are alright. It is not too late to take up my recent generous offer on the Prozac.

Please don't ever leave this forum; as I for one almost get up in the morning exclusively to see what pearls you have delivered to us today!

I am trying to understand that you hav'nt given much detail of the design which might be at a more advanced stage than many of us think.
If this is because of patent protection issues, I suggest that you forget them. I have also been down the patent road in my own field (not boats) and real protection requires patents in all countries, at exorbitant costs; retaining of specialist patent attorneys in each country, also at exorbitant costs.
Then the Chinese Government can do what they want in a joint venture with some manufacturer over there. How are you going to fight that?
Forget the patent thing, I did eventually, as it makes no sense.
If you were to share some of the detail with us on this forum, you probably would get more constructive and sympathetic argument from people that are knowledgeable, and it might assist your project, but not with money though.

 

Peoples Foiler- aeroSKIFF 14 detail

Once again for emphasis and for those who have not read and understood it the first two times. There is an incredible amount of detail here especially considering that there are several proprietary aspects to this design. In fact(and I may be wrong), I don't think there is another small sailboat design(much less a foiler!) under 20' described in more detail anywhere on the "Sailboats" forum.I've edited the original post down to just the specifications and features of the 14.
I'll answer almost any question about these specs.....

[QUOTE
See drawings in Post 15 ,this thread
--------------------------------
TARGET SPECIFICATIONS / aeroSKIFF 14 / based on 250lb. max crew-drawings in post 15 based on 220lb. max crew.
-------------------------------------------
1) LOA 14'8" Beam 12'(drawings in post 15 show 10' beam-beam may be increased to reduce buoyancy pod size and to help make crew weight range wider)
-------------------------------------------
2) Target ready to fly boat weight: 120 lb.s
--------------------------------------------
3) Max Crew 250lb.s ; target minimum crew 120lb. -----------------------------------------------
4) Flying weight: 370lb.s
-----------------------------------------------
5) SA 143 sq.ft. square topped, camber induced , main only, unstayed mast ,extended luff, modified wishbone, midboom sheeting.
-----------------------------------------------
6) Standard main foil area 1.68 sq.ft.
-----------------------------------------------
7) Mainfoil loading @ 80% 176lb. sq. ft.
-----------------------------------------------
8) Rudder foil area 50% mainfoil area.
-----------------------------------------------
9) SA/mainfoil area: 85sq. ft. per sq.ft. foil area.
-----------------------------------------------
10) "Wing Loading"( all up weight divided by SA) =2.58lb.s per sq.ft. SA.
------------------------------------------------
11) Draft ,off foils; foils extended= 3.75'-variable.
===============================================
Features
===============================================
1) High speed rig with sail design by Barry Spanier; mast design and engineering by Eric Sponberg.Forward third of sail comes completely down to the deck; the boom is a modified version of a wishbone boom with a cross member just forward of mid length that takes the mainsheet. The sheet is led to a traveller on the forward beam allowing the sheet to come from forward. A twin vang set up will be used should a vang be required.
-----------------------------------------------
2) Foils retract to facilitate beach launching.
-----------------------------------------------
3) Sliding single bench seat; slides easily and contains ballast compartment for one design class weight equalization system.Motion control system that prevents runaway seat in adverse situations.
----------------------------------------------
4) Standard foils optimized for low speed takeoff; optional tip extentions; optional high speed foils.
-----------------------------------------------
5) Buoyancy pods approx 1.56 cu' per side; larger optional pods available for training.(see approx 3 cu. ft. pods illustrated in the sketches in post #15)
-----------------------------------------------
6)Rudder: unique design slides up and down in daggerboard style slot; stepped rudder flap designed to allow variable rudder area between non foiling and foiling; Target is to have rudder throw and sensitivity the same on or off
foils.
-----------------------------------------------
7) Double ended hull facilitates earliest 0 to takeoff speed; facillitates pitch change to allow early takeoff though foil system may not require this.
-----------------------------------------------
8) Trampoline each side with heel cutouts allowing quick, secure seat movement.
-----------------------------------------------
9) Foils designed to take loads imposed by jumping which can be initiated by twisting hiking stick(s).System bypasses wand but still utilizes forward /rear foil interconnect.
-----------------------------------------------
10) Variable main foil "gear shift" angle of incidence adjustment. From "set it and forget it" to fine tuning main foil drag.
-----------------------------------------------
11) Exceptionally wide crew weight range ; one design cass races wil be sailed at the 250 lb.s crew weight. Speed runs will be able to be made with lower crew weight as long as RM is addressed.
----------------------------------------------
12) Wand controlled altitude with height adjustment. Set it and forget it or tweak it. Unique averaging wand system to improve choppy water response including fore and aft foil interconnect and wand bypass for smoother flying and better jumps.
----------------------------------------
Jumping is an important part of this foiler design because we think it will add to the value of the boat and to the fun of flying this foiler.[/QUOTE]

 

Doug Lord quote, once more for emphasis "In fact, one idea that we favor is to make the sale of an aeroSKIFF contingent on completion of the foiler course."

Ya plan on selling lots of boats then, do ya?

Certainly, this is music to the ears of anyone wanting to invest, start seeing returns and hoping that the celebrity value of Doug's association will make the difference.

In an empirical kind of way, this is truly admirable... this whole, school requirement thing. Unfortunately, it carries with it an onus of extreme difficulty associated with foiling boats and this boat specifically.

I can just hear the pissed-off dealer in San Francisco now, "Oh, and by the way, the purchase price does not include your obligation to fly to, what is it, Gulf Coast Florida, where you will have to pay to be in the local motel along with food and also pay to learn to drive the bloody thing. What's that? Cancel the deal? You can't cancel the deal when you put down earnest money. Oh, you say because the earnest money was drawn on Visa, they will simply refuse to pay me. Why... why, I'm calling Doug right now"

And it's soon after, that the man with the money behind the whole scheme starts making noise about taking away the tooling and the spare parts inventory and the rights to the name itself. Since you never had any money to hire an attorney to begin with, he wins by default because he carries a bigger hammer than you.

Game Over

Nope, make a simpler, easier to sail boat, junk the obligation school idea and start hitting the road with your dream under your arm. Complicated products with umpteen strings attached is not the way to win friends as a start-up outfit.

It's almost as if you did this marketing plan by establishing a dreamy, tough to position product and then worked backwards arranging all the parameters until they fell into place according to your assumed expectations for an outcome. Cherry picking the substantiation and ignoring all the vast numbers of warning signs along the road is not an effective management style if you seek a proper conclusion. If it doesn't get you fired, it'll get you out of business.

Have you guys even bothered with a full-tilt, boating public survey that asked specific questions about foilers as well as general marine opinions, or is all this just pure supposition on your part? Ask Eric: If you don't have the data, you are just guessing. Because the product is so new and has so little overall awareness in the marine public's consciousness, it's not that same box of tools that sells El Toro's or Melges 24's that will get you to the finish line on this.

To begin with, those boats look like boats. Not a big problem for product recognition. You have a big problem in that regard. If you don't believe that to be true, then why do so many adults find it virtually impossible to name any important person in the US Gov't by photograph when these same people are in the news nearly everyday. Foilers are not on the Evening News everyday and so they stand a much lower chance of having product recognition. Ya, just gotta make it easy on the folks who spend their money and that usually means you have to spend the money to show them the way.

Once more for emphasis for those who didn't get it the first time...

You need more money than the figure you trotted-out... waaaay more. And you need more honesty in your idealistic marketing methodology.

 

Peoples Foiler aeroSKIFF Funding misquote(s)

I apologize for making it so difficult to add up the total estimated investment required as we projected it last year. As you can see the approximate total is:
$120,000+ triple $120,0000= $480,000 which, of course, is substantially more than the amount that was misquoted twice now.

 

Edited. I had a little parody here, but it's sort of like Tom Lehrer felt; you get to the stage where life is beyond parody when you're asking half a mill when you can't be bothered to build a prototype (like Andy P, Wardie, and lots of other foiler sailors have done) and you tell world champs who have won champs on foilers that they are wrong about jumping, when you have never jumped a foiler. That's like telling Tiger Woods how to improve his swing.

 

Haw Haw

Half a million US$ before the first product is produced? What sort of realistic business plan is that? How many boats need to be sold each year just to pay the debt service? How many years to pay down the debt?

This gets more funny/pathetic with every post.

 

OH, My God!

CT,

That is just so rich it makes me all misty. You have the genuine article when it comes to writing skills.

Chris