Peoples Foiler :aeroSKIFF™ / M4

Thank you Doug,
My mistake. I wanted to say "trimaran-like", meaning the general picture given by the inclusion in the design of the buoyancy pods, not "trifoiler". I had the idea that if the foil or foils, any number of them, are supported below a more traditional looking craft like a catamaran, ( the two hulls could function as pods, couldn t they? ), that would be a commercial benefit to some people. On the other hand, it is more sincere for a revolutionary functioning craft to look revolutionary too!
One humble advice: It would be a pity to be too much concerned about the cost, at least at this stage of development. People pay much more than the estimated cost of the boat for much less fun. If you build it they will come... Sailing foilers are here to stay, and it is sure that one day, one of them will be a commercial success. Good luck!

 

aeroSKIFF 14/Trapwing 17

Thank you very much for the encouragement, Xarax! Means a lot and I appreciate it.

 

I really like the concept, Doug. Neat idea and I'll be following along to see what news you bring.
About the cost, that's come up here and in other foiler threads. This may not seem like a big issue to some, but for a lot of us it is the single biggest deciding factor. As a case study, I present the totally unscientific Boats Seen On A Cottage Lake In A Year study:
Outboards under 16 feet: ~35 (everyone on the lake has 1 to 3 of them)
Outboard and sterndrive runabouts over 16 feet: ~4
Sailboats of any sort: 1, a '70s Sunfish, even though the lake is windy enough 4 days a week to top six knots in this thing.
Why is this? The answer is that those aluminum utility boats are worth two grand, three at most, plus a 10-20hp motor. Show me a sailboat that's fun to use, comfortable, fast enough to get more than 500 metres from the dock, and that doesn't dunk you every ten minutes, for under $5,000 CDN. A "people's boat" of any sort has to be affordable- for $15,000 I can get a pretty decent car, or a 16-footer with a 50hp. What does that get me in the sailboat world? This is the issue that must be solved before any radical new sailboat can be called a "people's boat".
As an aside, what does a new Laser go for these days? What about other non-piggish dinghies? Yup.....

 

Peoples Foiler

Thanks, Matt. I think whats going to have to happen is that some of us that believe in the potential of this type of boat are going to have to produce prototypes that prove the points we've been making about ease of sailing, low wind takeoff etc. In so doing we will refine the details and come up with a way to reduce cost or inspire some one else(!) to do that -and finally a Peoples Foiler will be born. The guys on the RS and M4 are a lot further ahead than I am and I imagine that there are others as well. Somebody, somewhere will pull it all together-no doubt in my mind!
---------------
I think a Laser is around 4-6 grand but I'm not positive. One of the little appreciated facts about a Moth foiler is that it can be homebuilt with buoyancy pods, a pro,camber induced carbon rig and pro foils for around $7,000 ! I'm pessimistic about costs(and a few other things) given the world situation but I agree that cost is an important part of the equation for a Peoples Foiler.
--------------
Laser Pro=$5,000
Vanguard Racing Sailboats Price List
Address:http://www.theboathouse.biz/boat_vanguard_price_list.asp

 

"Laser Pro=$5,000" USD, of course.... to a Canuck like me that's more like $6800 after tax.....
I agree completely, Doug. Innovation only succeeds when someone is passionate enough to make it succeed.
By the time the People's Foiler is produced at a reasonable cost, I might even be making enough money to buy one

 

Danish Bagger, were you serious in thinking that I was serious? If you have read any of my previous postings then it would make sense, (I think!).

P.S. The reason that ballasted dinghies werent included is that any one foolish enough to think that a lead carrying dinghy could compete with 30 mph. foilers would surely be wrong, and as speed is all there is, this sub-type would immediately be relegated to "Museum Standard".

 

Foil the Hoot?

Somewhat interesting thread developing on DA:
Foiling the Hoot - Sailing Anarchy Forums
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=39879
I'm afraid that a real succesful Peoples Foiler will have to be designed from scratch as a foiler.
But maybe not: the first foiler Moth's were conversions.....
------------------------
Voodoo & Hoot: why not foils?? - Boat Design Forums
Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10431&highlight=Hoot
------------------------
Das Hoot! - Boat Design Forums
Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9754&highlight=Hoot

 

Foiler yachts, a marketing flop!

Without needing to express my own opinion I refer to some self explanatory historical facts:
http://www.windriderforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=596

AND---
http://www.hobiecat.com/sailing/models_trifoiler.html

Note the bit that says that the "Trifoiler is no longer in production". However we still include it on our web site beacuse it is so cool.

My theory is that production was deliberately ceased even though demand was really high from potential buyers because---
The Hobie company wanted the Trifoiler to become a collectors item, just like the Mercedes Gull wing 1952 SL 300 and for the second hand one or two out there to increase enormously in value because of their rarity value.

 

Peoples Foiler (candidates)

For shame , Frosh-not even on topic! This thread is about Peoples Foiler candidates-not "foiler yachts" or multifoilers and they only have two foils....

 

Two not three?... What the...?

This whole, People's Foiler scam, is really just a marketing position that Doug staked-out as his way to create wordsmithing leverage in advance of his subsequent endless stream of vapor hype. There is no such boat, there isn't likely to be any such boat That set of drawings that were done by Eric do not constitute a boat. They constitute a set of concept drawings from which a boat would be very difficult to build.

Let's face it folks, who in their right mind would attempt to market a product that has a nomenclature dreamed-up by the VaporMaster? It has so much dense baggage around its neck already that the claimer of that name would have to fight their way through the density curtain well before they could begin to open the argument for the boat itself.

No... there are literally thousands of other names one should correctly choose before being saddled with the title of, "People's Foiler".

Now, if China were to come out with that product and the ground crew were dressed in proletariat versions of the Mao suit, you could have a real winner in the works. A really efficient crew of guys buzzing around the pilot as he makes his way to the tightly prepped foiling machine on the beach. Something tells me that no savvy Chinese company would be taking Ol' Doug into the fold for consultation work on the marketing aspects of Foilerdom.

I'd be ready to sell them a whole campaign of pastel colored boats with bamboo and flower grahics on the sail and call the craft, The Lifting Lotus, with suitable Chinese characters to convey the name in the Asian market.

Who says this mythical boat has to have two foils to qualify? Is there a rule somewhere about that one that I missed in my lazy, rules reading approach to the foil genre?

Note to Frosh: my contacts in the paddling industry tell me that the whole development of the Rave was to create a high-tech product of enormous whiz-bang value as the company positioned itself for a buyout. It was a "we did it because we have the know-how to do it. We're a full spectrum outfit."

Is it any wonder that once the new owners got onboard and saw the development and potential marketing costs for an extremely niche product with little potential for earning back what it cost to get there, they dropped that dude and walked away as fast as they could?

Dr. Sam, or not, it was the wrong boat at the wrong time for market positioning in a practical sense. A cool boat? absolutely. One where I was willing to throw-down the cash? Nope.

 

Does he who starts the thread make all the rules?

WHAT - - IS THIS SORT OF RESPONSE?

It appears that because the Hobie Trifoiler and the Rave (Both now extinct like the Dodo) do not have a configuration exactly like a Moth we cannot use them as an example that by and large the public will not buy a foiler yacht, dinghy, multihull, watercraft, take your pick.

Well when is a trimaran a monohull? Doug knows this one! When the outer hulls are meant to fly through the air and only touch water in an emergency.
His much lauded M4 is technically a trimaran yet his romance with the Moth if not the Mothies (sadly) also includes the M4 and the Bladerider. Maybe his infidelity to the Moth was the cause of his falling out.

QUOTE BY FOILR:

Doug, as I've said before, we as a class do not need or want your promotion efforts or advice. Your ill-informed views have made you a pariah wherever they are voiced. Please keep your comments grounded in the reality of your own experiences, not those you've shared by reading web sites. You have managed to belittle the informed opinions of current and previous Moth administrators and sailors. I for one don't appreciate it.

By all means continue to promote the achievements of the M4 or the aeroSKIFF, don't pretend to be a source of truth for Moths.

Today I am an Attorney at Law.
If this case was to be tried in the Supreme Court of Western Australia, you would be without doubt found guilty of some form of felony and made to pay considerable compensation for your breach of trust!

 

I don't suppose the fact that it was a two-seat day-sailer that cost $20K (IIRC) and was an absolute dog in anything but a blow had anything to do with it.

Most people don't live in locales where the wind blows hard enough, enough of the time, to make good use of a Trifoiler. It's just plain disappointing to spend all that money for something that won't do what you want it to do most of the time. And being passed by ordinary beach cats is a bummer.

 

Who's gunna put he money up?

Hi Doug, thought you might like to be reminded of a couple of points that are pertinent, when you get to market the thing that's going to bring you fame and fortune, the "People's Foiler". First make sure that Senator Joe McCarthy's descendants have got over the " commo" thing as it sounds (as C. Ostlind accurately pointed out) like a Mao Tse Tung invention. You would have been lucky if it was, as he had a way of forcing people to do things!

This is from Ben Abee of CONFLUENCE WATERSPORTS the manufacturer of the Rave (deceased, the Rave not Ben)

LESSONS LEARNED:

First, the obvious,

1. Marketing of the Rave was either a miserable failure or non-existent. It's hard to tell which. The Rave marketing strategy was distilled to building the Rave parts, letting them sit in the factory, and hoping someone would hear about them. The Rave shared catalog space with the WR 16.

2. Confluence was given $26,000,000 to continue operations. Unfortunately, it wasn't enough to buy one print ad for the Rave.
*************************************************

Then there is the thing about the prevailing wind conditions so well illustrated by T. Speer. I believe that that around Orlando way it is pretty light, right?

Orlando Weather
(About My Yahoo! and RSS - RSS Help) Weather > North America > United States > Florida > Orlando
F° | C°

Current conditions as of 3:53 am EDT

Fair
Feels Like: 83°
Barometer: 30.10 in and steady
Humidity: 84%
Visibility: 10 mi
Dewpoint: 73°
Wind: Calm *********
Sunrise: 6:58 am
Sunset: 7:58 pm
78°High: 92° Low: 76°



Today: Partial cloudiness early, with scattered showers and thunderstorms during the afternoon. High 92F. Winds SE at 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 40%.
Tonight: Partly to mostly cloudy skies with scattered thunderstorms during the evening. Low 76F. Winds S at 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 40%.
Tomorrow: Partly cloudy in the morning followed by scattered thunderstorms later in the day. High 91F. Winds SSW at 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 40%.
Tomorrow night: Partly to mostly cloudy skies with scattered thunderstorms mainly before midnight. Low 76F. Winds S at 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 40%.

This means that to foil even in an optimised Bifoiler that weighs less than 70 lb. the sailor will need to weigh less than 130lb to fly in typical Orlando conditions in Summer. How many affluent US citizens even qualify in this requirement. (Sorry, but no insult intended by this, it is a statistical fact)
Of course the other option is variable size foils. Add at least $5000 for this accessory!
Are you maybe about to inherit a fortune? -- that you don't mind losing?

 

Peoples Foiler

Here's the post that originated this thread. One of the most important attributes of a successfull Peoples Foiler and a focus of the aeroSKIFF design is low windspeed takeoff. It is also a focus of the new Bladerider where the target is the same as the aeroSKIFF: takeoff in a 5 mph wind.
Whether it's the aeroSKIFF 14, M4(the most advanced Peoples Foiler candidate so far), modified RS 600, modified Hoot*, Bladerider or some heretofore unknown monofoiler it's highly likely that sooner or later someone will do it right and introduce the most exciting one design dinghy ever.
* See post 67 for a thread on Dinghy Anarchy about foiling the Hoot...

 

Doug, why dont you just build kits for people to turn thier boats into foilers? Less start up cost, less overhead, less bs. You don't have the problems of trying to introduce a whole new craft to the market. Start with something fresh (read: not a Moth), and as funds allow, expand. The market might be more receptive.