Peoples Foiler :aeroSKIFF™ / M4

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Feb 28, 2006.

  1. DanishBagger
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    DanishBagger Never Again


    I would assume that the heavier you are, and the better you are, not to mention the more it's blowing, that you can get very high speeds indeed.

    Not the answer you wanted, but I doubt anyone can go anymore precise than "you can expect x times speed of a similar sized boat in a given wind speed".

    The reason being that a foiler does not conform to the rules of waterline lengths, horsepower to weight ratio and that sort of thing.
     
  2. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Foiler Speed

    I believe a couple of multifoilers have done over 40 knots but not by much-pretty close to cavitation on most foils above that speed(though it can also occur at less speed). The Moth monofoiler has so far topped 23.9 knts measured on an accurate Velocitec GPS speedometer. But the World Champion thinks the boat can go much faster...No idea about the M4-maybe Simon Maguire will fill us in.
     
  3. alyne
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    alyne Junior Member

    Well done to the forward thinkers

    It's human nature to want to improve and change the way we do things. We need people to "think outside the box" otherwise life would be very boring.

    Doug, I don't have any marine engineering experience to back me up, only common sense, but I agree with you that the concept of building a relatively inexpensive hydrofoil for the mass market is a reasonable aspiration, and people that slam this goal outright are probably being a little narrow minded. (mass market in dinghy sales being a relative term)

    On the other hand, I don’t think you are doing yourself any favours by pushing the jumping idea. This to me sounds like something that should maybe explored once foiling has matured a little more.

    Just my thoughts
    Andy
     
  4. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    aeroSKIFF and jumping

    I appreciate your comments, Andy, and what Eric and I believe in regarding jumping is full, thorough and complete testing-we're not advocating anybody else do this- but we're both interested in any comments on the concept. The potential is great for a whole new aspect to foiling . If you look at the foilboards that routinely jump and re-enter you're seeing a hydrofoil system that allows safe re-entry and the ability to jump at will. It is my firm belief that this kind of capability can be brought to an aeroSKIFF type foiler-and that it is worth doing because of the extraordinary experience that it is sure to be. No time like
    the present to consider expanding foiling horizons....
    ========================
    added comment: Andy, in the Moth class an accidental jump does not always result in a crash but the wand system raises the flap up for maximum downforce as the boat nears the surface; that's the way it re-enters: with the mainfoil flap in a position to suck the boat down hard. But the wand can respond quickly and all such happenings are not crashes. What we are talking about is developing a system where the skipper can bypass the wand for a controlled jump and a controlled re-entry. One main question is if the foil will ventillate immediately upon re-entry and /or to what extent and how quickly lift will be restored. By manipulating the flap manually the outlook for re-entry is much brighter though there may need to be more things that happen as well. We know that it works on the foilboard hydofoils but it will require a lot of experimentation to get such a system to work on a much more efficient foil set. We're putting the effort in and we'll see what happens...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2006
  5. tspeer
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    tspeer Senior Member

    VT/sin(beta)
     
  6. casavecchia
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    casavecchia Senior Member

  7. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    By the way, re jumping.

    You can jump a long windsurfer (ie the 12'6" Mistral IMCO, the former Olympic class). In fact, there are videos of Robby Naish LOOPING the similar Mistral Equip and I am assured that others can LOOP Mistral IMCOs on open bays. I have not seen this myself but I have been told it is true by direct witnesses who I have known for years.

    So it's clearly possible, but we don't tend to do it. Sure, any breezy day we can jump an IMCO, but it's not an earth-shattering experience. Nor is jumping a skiff over a powerboat wake. Most windsurfer sailors use slalom boards which you could also loop on, but in fact they rarely tend to learn to chop-hop. It's just not that high on their priorities 'cause it's not that enormous a thrill.

    Jumping windsurfers in waves, where you get much more height and get to go upside down and twist etc, now that IS fun. High jumps on flat water, or going for flat-water loops, that's lots of fun too.

    Low jumps on flat water on the other hand are just something you may do once in a while.....sort of like seeing how high you can fly a cat hull,it's fun but doesn't make the earth move.
     
  8. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Rs 600

    Marco, thanks for that picture! Would be interesting to know if that was an individual or company project and who made the foils.
     
  9. casavecchia
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    casavecchia Senior Member

    The author of the picture is Adam May, who designed and is still developing the Mistress Moth built by Full Force so I would assume that are Full Force built.
    It seems that People's foiling is already here!
    Retrofitting a suitable boat is for sure cheaper than buying a new boat.
    And for gaining stability seems better more volume in the hull that out on the racks.
    Marco.
     
  10. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Rs 600

    That's an exciting development, Marco!
    And with the wider hull no buoyancy pods. It will be interesting to learn more stats on the boat particularly :In how light a wind can it takeoff? And whether or not the foils are retractable for off the beach sailing.. Great stuff!
     
  11. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

  12. frosh
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    frosh Senior Member

    What an important advance!

    The RS 600 on foils is great, but why should we end there. The revolution in sailing started by the Moth should be encouraged to proceed to rewriting of all existing " one-design" class rules so that the retro fitting of full flying foils becomes no less legal than painting your daggerboard pink!
    Eventually we will all be sailing so fast that laws will be required to fit automatic air bags to our yachts, and all sailors will have to wear full face helmets in case of potentially fatal collisions.

    The other interesting side effect of this move which just has to come, as it is well overdue, (The Moth has been on foils for a full two years now), is that hull shape will start to become irrelevant and in fact later on vestigial.

    Then there will be only three classes of yacht.

    (1) Unballasted dinghys.
    (2) Ocean racers { the number of hulls will be irrelevant}
    (3) "Musuem Standard" boats. {guess what they will look like?} :eek:
     
  13. DanishBagger
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    DanishBagger Never Again

    Classic example of going blind with awe

    Frosh,

    If only the racing classes would be opened, that is surely what would happen.

    If everyone was into carbon fibre, if everyone was cutting their toothbrush in half to save weight, if everyone had the same type of (flat) water to sail in, if everyone had the urge to continously get slammed and get wet, if everyone had the attitude that speed is everything, the type of boat nothing, if everyone was the type that bought a racing bike made from carbon and titanium, if everyone had the same needs and wants, and if everyone cared only about speed, and the only (land) vehicle they wanted was a 300+kph motorcycle, then that would surely happen.

    1. Why would you want ballast in a foiling dinghy? (You mention "unballasted", so I figure that ballasted would also be there somewhere, why else mention it is unballasted.

    2. Ocean racers. Ah, yes, super light weight on foils. How many do you think would be killed before that would die a quick death? Not to mention the forces on (ultralightweight) foils in an ocean racer (=big boats).

    3 "museum standard", yes, indeed, but to me that is much more fun. If speed was everything I wouldn't be building a keeler, I would have built or bought a katamaran or a skiff.

    Sorry, but that post of yours reminds me of technophiles talking about how great it would be if we got rid of the keyboard on our computers, and how much easier it would be to do your work. Three words "Open Office landscape" - that would be great, wouldn't it? Or answering your phone and having to navigate at the same time on your computer .. Or editing audio - with voice commands. SMS'ing someone while on the bus, and so forth.

    Yours are somewhat similar.


    Andre
     
  14. xarax

    xarax Previous Member

    I am sure you had considered the case of a catamaran foiler before you came up with the trifoiler. Catamarans are still more "conventionally" good looking crafts to many potential customers, and that could be a commercial benefit. Could you possibly state in a few words the reasons you finally came up with the trimaran solution ?
     

  15. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Monofoiler

    Xarax, I'm not sure whether you're addressing your comments to me or not but here goes: the aeroSKIFF 14 design is a monofoiler using just two foils to fly vs the three normally used on a trifoiler.It does use "buoyancy pods" to help with stability in non foiling conditions.
    aeroSKIFF 14
    1)Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5297&d=1141571544
    2)Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5298&d=1141571544

    My rc design, F3,is a "trifoiler" because I believe that for a multifoiler the three foil configuration is the lightest and because it also develops all it's own righting moment. Th F3 is much wider than it is long(72" wide; 56" long) and the very wide trimaran platform allows the loads on the foils to be drastically reduced as compared to a narrower cat that also uses a diferential "wand" system to generate RM.
    A regular poster to ths forum "ggguest" has come up with a multifoiler idea that might work like a two foil monofoiler: just two foils would be in the water at any one time and RM would be generated in the normal way. Might work , but the advantage the Hobie Trifoiler, Rave and F3 have is that they develop virtually unlimited RM which appears to give an advantage in the higher wind ranges but is nowhere near as eficient as a monofoiler in the wind ranges between 5 and 20 knots more or less. Hope this helps and I apologize if your question was not directed to me!
    F3 RC Sailing Multifoiler:
    mfoilerf3_14a.jpg
    Address:http://www.microsail.com/images/mfoilerf3_14a.jpg
     
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