Pedal Powered Boats

Well, I'd even accept traveling to something like the East Coast Kayak Festival to test out an available pedal boat. Last time I was there, the only pedal boat available was, no surprise, Hobie. If people out there have designs better than Hobie, why on earth would they not want to become independently rich by getting a patent, producing, marketing and mass selling their better product? Big kayak festivals is where major kayak marketing goes on. I've never heard of a Pedal Boat Festival where all the major pedal boat manufacturers and designers showcase their products and allow consumer to test their product.

 

Independently rich? I have a company and a product that does like no other and I'm not rich. Patent? ever try that? a company? ever try that? it's not at all that simple. I wish it was ....... and with this economy my product is struggling to stay alive till better times come back. I'm still hoping to pay the mortgage right now ....... Make a living with a new start up company in the recreation market? no thanks!

 

I checked out that website for the glaskipper and looked at the pedal boat and didn't see a single hatch. Doesn't look like much room for gear. With a weight of 155 pounds, you'd have to have a boat ramp to launch the thing. Thanks - I guess there is much to be thankful for as I do enjoy my pedal boat.

 

did you see jose's adventure? he was able to pack away some gear!
http://www.prophish.com/nyrio.html

so it sounds like you have/found the perfect boat for you. that's better than the rest of us here, we're all still tinkering away ......

 

An interesting view, but what exactly is the relevance of the beam comparison?

Displacement hull speed is primarily dictated by two factors, waterline length and wetted area. Beam is only a secondary consideration, a narrow beam is often just an artefact of minimising wetted area (for reduced viscous drag) whilst maximising waterline length (for increased speed before the onset of significant wave-making drag).

The muscle group argument is, I'm afraid, also wholly incorrect. Under endurance conditions the bodies continuous power output is aerobically limited, not muscle limited. In essence, the limit is the ability of an athlete's ability to maintain a supply of adequately oxygenated blood to the muscles, not the absolute, burst power capability of any particular muscle group.

These sort of beliefs, based on flawed assumptions, are just the reason that I thought up the experiment above. Without an objective test we are unable to do more than hypothesise, albeit with some hard data points to guide our thinking.

Jeremy

 

Yes, some of this is also on prophish page under custom services "our story":
http://www.prophish.com/pedalmachine.html They are surviving on their machine shop business with probably only write offs for their boats.

They could probably improve their props ( why 3 bladed?) and lower costs if they adopted some form of Rick's method for making props. OTOH it takes a rugged construction for Jose to have reached Central America from NY.

Seems like a good place to get custom machine work for those that don't have the talent, patience, or capital invested in machine shop equipment.....

Porta

 

Dennis only have a few pics and home movies that are in a family vacation album. Hundreds have photographed me in action, so I am surprised nothing has been posted to the web. I am planning to dub over some commentary in the family stuff and post to u tube someday when I have time, after I retire. I often used to fly into HRL and drive down to work the sheltered Coast Guard station area and sometimes, the convention center areas with my 'toon over a decade ago at SPI. Left the Valley 1969 and don't do salt water anymore. Here's something to give you an idea of what the body of the most recent boat looks like: http://www.4seasonsfly.com/11939/234630/Float-Tubes/Outcast-Discovery-Trekker.html I tried small paddlewheels and a few other approaches which were too heavy for my uses. I finally worked out a tiny electric drive in about '92, which evolved to the flex shaft electric in early '95, and is about all I use now on rivers...

Porta

 

The significance of the beam comparison is that a wider boat of similar length usually has more surface contact (wetted area). My wide Hobie was beating boats of similar length that were significantly narrower. If beam has no relevance in boat design, then why are racing kayaks continually getting narrower and narrower to the point that initial stability is absolutely terrible? Sorry about being incorrect with this thought that the narrower the boat, the faster it is, as I base that on mere observation and experience instead of scientific formulas.

I don't need any tests to conjure up a theory that legs are more powerful than arms. Reality (for me) yields that using the same level of exertion (perceived), I can pedal my Hobie Mirage Drive kayak on average about 1 mph faster than I can paddle it and that is based on plenty of experience, not hearsay. Sorry that my body seems to fall outside the realm of what you say is correct about muscle groups.

Everything I say seems to be incorrect in this forum. Well, you folks enjoy your pedal boat experimentation to gain a few hundredths of a mile per hour in speed to make up for what you lack in physical power so you can feel superior on the water in terms of speed and design compared to other pedal boats. Your quest for absolute maximum speed does little to promote the sport of pedal boat racing except in the little known boat division of novelty designs.

I have to say thanks to Greg Ketterman at Hobie for designing the "poor performing" Mirage Drive. Because of Hobie, pedal boats are not a novelty product any more and have gone into mainstream America. I see I'm wasting my time in this forum. Bye. Moderator - delete my account. Thanks.

 

the place has really changed, lots more buildings, less view, more people, more rules and laws enforced, etc. , the water is pretty much the same but it's still the nicest beach in texas. I almost went and did a kayak trip down the colorado river this week, but am holding out to do my entire coast of texas trip just as soon as I think the weather is gonna be nice for a couple of weeks. I'll be able to recon the whole coast for when I get my next boat together and do some serious testing for the next 1200 mile Ultimate Florida Challenge (ufc). I had a couple of other races in which I thought that maybe a prop drive would work but with further research discovered that what i had in mind would not work out so good. The ufc on the other hand, now there is a project where the pieces are coming together! Lots of different ideas are being put together to form up one interesting craft. I can't wait to do some water testing! but it'll take me awhile to get to a completed boat but that's ok, i got till 2014 til the next ufc.

 

Sorry you took this the wrong way, no offence was intended.

It's a well-documented fact that the bodies aerobic limit is what governs continuous power output, no matter what you may choose to believe. A quick review of any of the sports science studies on this topic will quickly show this to be the case.

The more muscle groups you can use the better, to some extent, as that helps cardiovascular efficiency, but favouring one muscle group over another doesn't. Certainly our leg muscles are capable of delivering greater forces than other muscles, but we aren't talking about force here, what we need is continuous power.

I have no strong feelings about the Hobie drive, as it happens. It works, it has some distinct advantages, like relative freedom from fouling and looks to have been marketed reasonably well. It's wrong to assume that sales success is related to performance, or efficiency, though. There are many, many examples where the best technical solution hasn't sold well, Betamax vs VHS, for example. Often it's the company with the best marketing and support provision that sells the most product, often irrespective of efficiency or technical quality. Look at bicycles, as another example, closer to the thread topic. The best selling bikes are often draggy, wide-tyred, pseudo "mountain bikes", more often than not fitted with energy sapping suspension of poor design. The cheap ones that sell well are horribly inefficient, when compared to a bike that has been optimised for low drag and propulsive efficiency, yet they continue to sell well.

It's been pointed out that I missed displacement in the comment above, which was unintentional, as in my head I relate displacement to wetted area. As someone with a background in aerodynamics I still struggle a bit in translating the same fluid engineering concepts into "boat speak".

Jeremy

 

Hey, good luck with those tours! What time of year are you planning your adventure, what kind of craft are you using? Are Spring and Fall still the most tolerable times? Will you be in the semi sheltered intercoastal or out in the surf? It has to be a good size boat with backup maybe, to carry enough supplies I would think. My daughter went to UF so I explored most of the rivers like the Swannee and tributaries a couple of years ago by 'toon, some beautiful areas.
I will be up at the Eel river redwood area for Kinetic sculpture race in May this year and then working some rivers in the Sierras in July with my 'toon.

Porta

 

How weird is this:
http://kayakforbackpacks.com/
Austin Davis is launching on this exact same trip starting at first light in the morning! I called him but he is wanting to do this all solo ....... but we can all follow him via spot tracker off his website. He didn't know exactly from where he's launching but I'd like to see him off. I offered him a place to stay and whatever else he might need but he seems to have it all together. I'll be there for him regardless ....... and here's the third trip/race I'll be watching via the spot tracker! we are expecting yet another front to come in, so austin's departure won't be at a perfect time. I was wanting to wait a bit so I'd not have to deal with any north winds. I plan on doing a combo of bays, ICW and offshore, depending on conditions at that time. I know I'll want to be offshore from High Island, just past Galveston to Sabine Pass which is the finish. The ICW is just a bit too inland there and the finish I want on the coast, but the weather is what will determine what I'll do!

anyway, Good Luck Austin, and Happy Trails!
this is his second trip doing this btw .....

Here I am at the mouth of the Rio Grande River, on the US/mexico border. That lighthouse tower is in mexico. This is a 17'x22.5 plastic Perception Shadow Kayak. It can hold 7 gallons of water and 2 weeks worth of food, I will be unsupported the entire way. The next time I do this trip it will be with my new wacky catamaran sailing craft with a prop peddle drive!

 

Jeremy
The propeller would do the best.

I have tried the Hobie but it was the short Mirage hull. They are very slow. The over-centre action of the pedals is awkward.

About two years ago an IHPVA contributor did heart rate calibration and then tested his Hobie Adventure. At 8kph (5mph) the flappers achieved an efficiency of 36% based on back calculation of the hull drag. This was his normal sustainable level. The efficiency lifted to 50% around his aerobic limit.

The very beginning of this thread has my heart data from a run I did in Mike Lampi's Cadence so I know where it sits in relation to my boats. It is about the same as my OC1 (V7).

Mike Lampi regularly races against paddled craft and you get a good idea from his results where the Cadence stands in that field:
http://soundrowersandpaddlers.sports.officelive.com/RaceResults.aspx
You can get some idea of the average speed but you need to know currents and winds to make real sense of it.

 

Materials for pedal powered hull

Wish to build a pedal powered boat. Probably 24 ft length with narrow beam.
Was thinking foam insulation blocks glued together, shaped, and glassed. Plywood glassed in on top for seat, drive and controls. Any and all input/advise welcomed.:?: