Parachute Anchors?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by blackdaisies, Oct 19, 2008.

  1. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    I read one description of them saying to sew up around edges to build them up better. They weren't strong enough. They only work until the waves pull it in between them surfacing and draining it until they refull with water.

    Heave to sounds also not possible under certain conditions. If winds are high and you have to take down your sail, what then?

    I think best option is have lots of ballast as protection. It's makes a heavy slow boat, but efficient.
     
  2. Ike
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    Ike Senior Member

    On a sail boat the last thing you ever want to do is have no sail at all. If you have to take down the main and jib you should have a storm sail. That is a very small sail made of very heavy material. You need this to steady the boat and keep the head to wind. Otherwise you get beat up really badly. If you look at north sea trawlers and many other types of ocean cruising boats even they have a small steadying sail.

    Running before a sea under bare poles is a last resort and that's when you need a sea anchor or drogue the most. Other wise you have the danger of broaching or being pitch poled.

    If you take a look at many of the rescues, where the Coast Guard or other rescuer has pulled the crew off of a sail boat during a storm, almost invariably the boat survives just fine all by itself. The crew is what can't take it. But they could have if they had learned proper techniques to use in a storm. Many many small boats have survived storms where bigger vessels were lost.

    You need to take a course in heavy weather sailing.
     
  3. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    That is good information and I can search a book on that. I would hate to get stranded in the middle of no where with no way stop getting sucked under every wave. I guess for a sailing license, do you study that during it's course? Is it required to take a sailing license before taking your boat out into the water?

    Something like this?

    http://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Weather-Sailing-Captains-Guides/dp/0071452214

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    I don't know about that course in particular, but I would recomend reading everything you can about sailing and boating. There is an amazing amount of knowledge out there to learn, and after 30 years of sailing I still learn something new every time I go out.

    As for heavy weather... If you are in Tennesse I doubt that any of this is really a problem for you, since most inland lakes are not subject to the type of conditions that lead to large waves, though high winds can cause problems. I would recomend looking into the local power squadron or Coast Guard Aux classes on basic seamanship, right of way and the like. Though at least for most states there is no law requiring that you have a liscense to operate a boat if you are over 16.

    The one thing I would recommend is to stay away from the really technical books for a while. Since they can really bog down unless you have the grounding necessary to take advantage of what they are teaching.

    One more thing... Ocean fisherman are always moving, they never want to stand still (ok there are times, but not often), since most ocean fish worth eating are predators. That means they like to attack fast moving bait. For Tuna, swordfish or the like, trolling at 10 knots or more is not unusual.
     
  5. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    We also have the Chattahoochee and the Mississippi river that lead to oceans if anyone cares to travel that far. Boating from here to Florida in nice weather would be nice and a great cheap vacation. I don't expect ocean waves, but to be caught in a bad storm on the water that is very deep, and most lakes are, I would like a way to buckle down safely. We are kind of a tornado alley, so regardless of the type of water here, some kind of safety should be known if I can't get back to shore in enough time.

    The waters here are flat and shallow in a lot of areas, but our lakes are pretty deep, the Cumberland is near by and it links up to the Tennessee River, leading into the Mississippi. If you care to take a long trip, you could do it.
     
  6. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    http://www.yachting-life.com/safety sense/heavy weather.htm

    http://www.furlings.com/index.php

    How would you install a rolling reefing system, and don't start calling me stupid yet, but how would you use it for a cat claw micro sailer 15 footer?

    How about an inner fore stay? Am I wrong to say you add them on when needed for stormy weather? And if it is attached to an area, how do you build it up to withstand the dangerous high winds? A small boat will be tossed like nothing without lots of ballast and how would you reinforce the hooks and clasps to hold it in for an emergency fore stay?

    a hanked-on storm jib or heavy air staysail

    Ever heard of this?

    If anyone knows, it would be nice to here about them.

    Thank you!
     
  7. Faraway
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Faraway Will the tide ever turn

    making sails out of plywood?

    That sounds interesting; I hope you're making pix and video of all this. You may want to watch the Tom Hanks movie Castaway for some construction ideas. I think he used half the walls of a porta pottie for his sail and it worked fine until his sea mate "Wilson" the soccer ball broke loose and drifted away.

    Personally, I don't know why he wanted to leave that island. No stock market worries there, and no damned political commercials either.

    Stu
     
  8. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Black,

    I think you are over thinking this for a 15' sailing cat. I understand being prepared for bad weather, and am all in favor of safety. But you won't be making open water passages on this boat, and I doubt will be in situations where you can't just choose to not go out on days when the weather is bad.

    But to answer your questions...

    A roller furler can be used on a boat this small, though I doubt there is a reason to. Just drop the jib when the wind picks up and use some bungie cord to lash it to the deck. Most boats in this size range also don't have a reefable main, but you could certainly add a reef point if you wanted to, though the equipment to manage it might be a bit much for the small boom you have.

    As for how to attach a sail to the forestay... It all depends on what type of headstay you have. If it is just a piece of wire, then hanks (small clips) are just riveted in place on the sail and they are clipped to the wire.

    A foil can also be placed over the wire, which allows you to use a different type of attachment system. Basically a thick rope is sewn into the luff of the sail that goes inside of a groove of the foil. This acts just like a hanked on system, but supports the luff of the sail the entire way up the sail. Improving the wind flow over the luff of the sail at the expense of added weight.

    Finally a roller furler uses a foil but with bearings that allow the foil to spin. This allows you to roll the entire sail up around the forestay for easy stowage, and to reduce the amount of sail area up just like switching to a smaller jib. But at the expense of performance.


    There really shouldn't be a need to reinforce the forestay on any boat if it was properly designed in the first place. Since by switching to a smaller and smaller headsail you reduce the amount of load on the stay.

    Finally adding an inner forestay effectively changes the boat from a sloop to a cutter rig (there are some technical differences but generally this is correct). There are a number of advantages to a cutter rig, but mostly they can be summed up as 1) more working sail area on a reach. 2) the ability to carry more combinations of sails in changing weather.

    There are also a lot of disadvantages to a cutter however. Most importantly that they reduce the mauverability of the boat by making it difficult to tack, because the jib has to be brought in between the inner stay and the forestay. You also have a new friction point for the larger sail, increasing the wear and tear. Finally a cutter rig by increasing the windage of the boat forward of the mast reduces the pointing ability of the boat.
     
  9. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    I do plan one day to take it on a voyage or I would go ahead and buy a pontoon boat! lol! I want to make sure it's small enough for one person to handle and weighs enough to keep me safe in a bad storm. I am worried about being stranded. Even in local bad weather stuck in the middle one of these rivers is bad during a tornado. I also had planned to stay on it some weekends out. I just want to do some exploring and with family in Michigan, I can go to the great lakes which also leads into the ocean if you follow it exiting to the ocean near Canada.

    I will have to study which one is compact enough, light enough, that gives the most benefits in storms. I watched video of the Gail Sail for $500 dollars or near that. Am I wrong to say a tarp wouldn't work? I've seen them used for sails, but I guess not for storm sails?

    If the tarps are good, I can sew one up myself. Thanks for the very good advice.

    If I get that far I will take video!
     
  10. bistros

    bistros Previous Member

    I've been following your thread since it's inception, and have kept silent as I had hoped others would gently lead you to realize you are concerned about issues far removed from your current state as a fledgling sailor.

    People have been gently trying, and it doesn't seem to have really catalyzed the epiphany hoped for.

    Here's the best advice I can give you:

    1) Start sailing more and Internet researching less.
    2) Use common sense regarding conditions in which you sail, and honest, objective evaluation of your own experience and abilities. Incrementally increase your ability to sail in more weather and wind as you gain expertise in easy conditions. Time on the water is a far better teacher than research off the water.
    3) Do not try to research the breadth of all available sailing information and try to apply it to your situation. Concentrate on researching specific topical information directly relating to your CURRENT level of experience, CURRENT boat and CURRENT sailing venues. Sea anchors are appropriate for ocean crossings and storms in which a beginner has no excuse for being out in.
    4) HAVE FUN, do not turn sailing into work. Fun teaches faster and gets results far more effectively than grinding.
    5) Take a course on basic boat handling from competent, qualified instructors.

    I'm certainly not trying to harsh your dreams here, I'm trying to give you the perspective necessary to have real fun now and progress fast towards your long term goals. Have fun, enjoy every day sailing on your 15' cat right now on your local lakes and rivers.

    --
    Bill
     
  11. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    Boats are expensive, so getting a boat that you can use in any water conditions is the best option, and I am going ocean voyaging in it, but not today, or maybe this year, but I plan on it. There is nothing wrong in knowing what to do in bad weather and newbie is usually the one dumb enough to get him/her into trouble by not knowing when to get out of the water, planning to beach it before the storm and not during it.

    I had a simple question, not being paranoid and a discussing of types of bad weather conditions, it's only a discussion and it' important to know. I've come across the topic and wanted to learn more about it, that's all. There's nothing wrong with asking.

    You gave good advice to wean a sailor into being able to sail in the wind, and I will take all your good advice, but this isn't an immediate issue, just a topic I came across and didn't think it would bother anyone, so sorry if that is what it's doing. I do appreciate it and anyone who doesn't know anything about anchors, knows a little more like I do now too.
     
  12. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Lets back up a sec. The boat that will take you on an ocean voyage is radically different than the boat that will be reasonable for a day sailor. While there are some similarities (in that they both float) the design paramaters for the two are radically different and honestly you don't know enough to evaluate the difference between them at this point.

    I applaud your desire to learn, but at this point you need to go out and do some day sailing in protected waters on nice days before ever thinking about a longer cruise. A lot of the issues you have raised are only going to confuse the issue at this point since the explanation to your questions only raises more complicated issues you are not able to digest.

    For instance the question you raise about using a tarp for sails has a number of different even potentially conflicting, but all correct answers:

    1) The short answer being that they can and do work for sails, as any reasonably airproof material will.

    2) They will not work for sails since tarps lack the load bearing characteristics to preserve their shape over the long term or in heavy conditions.

    3) Because of the way that material stretched tarps will stretch in exacally the wrong way for sailshape, thus increasing draft in the sails instead of reducing draft in heavy air.

    4) The durability of a tarp sail is suspect from the day it is made. For a daysailor it may be ok since durability may take a back seat to cheap, on the other hand for a ocean cruise durability becomes more important than cheap (design paramaters change).

    All this being said I have a OSP (One sheet of Plywood) sailboat that uses a tarp for a sail, and I have other boats that I would never even consider using them on. It all depends on the intended use for the boat and sails. For what you are doing I think a tarp is dangerous just because it introduces a known week link in the durability of your boat. While I might be willing to accept that risk, I have thousands of ocean miles and thousands of sailboat races under my belt, and know how to self rescue in the event of an equipment failure.

    Black I would seriously recomend you just go sailing a few times where you are, and start to learn the practical side of sailing. Once you have some experience on good days then you can build on that in worse weather. But to even contemplate an ocean cruise at this point is courting disaster, either by doing it in the wrong boat, or in overbuilding a boat for what you can do now.

    Either way you will wind up makeing avoidable mistakes. There is a reason that there are both Hobie 16's and Easterly 30's being built. No one boat can do everything well. There are always compromises, and at this stage you sound like you have a boat that can do what you are prepared to do. use it for that and replace it when your needs change.
     
  13. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    I was asking to know what to buy for a boat as supplies, not that I need them to go on a voyage. I have no intention to go into an ocean to go sailing by myself. In a group one day, maybe island hop to get to where I'm going, but no, I'm asking to know what gear to own. I have no intentions on getting myself killed. You misunderstand the questions. I'm finding gear necessary for a sail boat that one day will make a long ocean trip in the next 4 or 5 years, but get lots of sailing in inland waters first.

    I am interested in the Chatahoochi rivers, Cumberland, Tennessee, and Missouri most of all, but I just want to have the proper equipment. Those are things even in inland waters you would have for being caught in a tornado. This is unpredictable weather and a tornado can pop out of many of the storms. I'm not going on a voyage, the boat isn't even built. It hasn't been designed yet and won't even be started until about May or June home building. I still don't know what boat I want.

    I do know I can't own 10 different boats. I only want a boat to one day go ocean voyaging and the trailer sailers with lots of ballast have good reputations, even though they are small. Even when the boat gets built, it will mostly do Island hopping or at least follow a trail of them in case of emergencies even if I never stop at them.

    I am shopping for the right equipment, not on a voyage needing help. I don't understand how it was taken that way. But look at the prices of things? You want to make sure you buy the right equipment, so you don't have to buy another, or have two with one you can't use. It's just a matter of gear, not matter of a current voyage.
     
  14. bistros

    bistros Previous Member

    You've got a positive attitude for sure. The most economical way to acquire gear needed is to find a used boat being sold with equipment included. It's amazing that buying a completely equipped five year old boat is many times cheaper than building one yourself and then accumulating all the needed stuff. Even if I was building w new boat I'd consider buying a used boat from an estate sale or from someone coming off the water for the last time just for all the little things needed, then re-selling the boat.

    Motors, dinghies, anchors, navigation equipment, electronics, safety equipment is all extremely expensive new, but often thrown in when a boat is sold in a hurry. Don't go buying equipment so far ahead of the year of your departure

    To be honest, to sail where you are now what you really need is common sense, very shallow draft and perhaps a VHF radio with weather reporting. If you've got money burning a hole in your pocket, a GPS would be a nice toy.

    You should never be on the water during a storm, especially cells that could be rotating. If you are, you undervalued the common sense item above. The single most important rule about cruising is that safely waiting till the right time on passages is always faster long term that pushing ahead when you shouldn't. Ignoring common sense can cost big money in repairs if you are lucky, or can kill you if you aren't.

    Long before i spent any money on equipment purchases, I'd spend the same money gaining time on the water. It's funny but a lot of people fall in love with the romantic notion of small boat cruising but the reality of no space, wet, smelly & furry everything, very rough living conditions and fitting two or more people in s space smaller than most jail cells can be stressful and miserable. Fresh drinking water, air conditioning / heating, cheap fuel, a stable legal system and low crime are things you get to leave way behind when offshore cruising in small boats.

    Try weekending and maybe a two week vacation on the water and you'll find out very quickly if your can live with people in a small space.

    --
    Bill
     

  15. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    That sounds reasonable. I'll look for old boats for sale, even if they are irreparable, they can be stripped of everything and used for parts. I'm sure there is a junk yard for boats I can look over. I've also looked at the used gear already, so if I can't get a boat full of goodies, I can buy used. This equipment should last a while.

    I am veyr enthusiastic, but I'm not trying to get myself killed or anyone else. The first thing anyone should look into when boating is the safely procedures, learning what to have to save your life, how to use it, how to know to avoid most of all, and it could save lives. I am just looking around at what things I may have to buy and which one works better. 10 different anchors, 10 different sails, 10 different boats, doesn't sound very positive to have to own just to have the right equipment for simple trips.

    The waters are inland waters most of the way, at the end the Mississippi reefs were tore up by the Katrina storms and never fixed. The waters may not have high waves, but they are fast moving all the way through, or are in some places, and they are very choppy at where the ocean meets the river. So that is something to consider if anyone plans to tour I think the call it the "Loop". There are a lot of coastal boats coming in and out for a tour from Mississippi to Ohio. I'm in Tennessee, so I'm gong down, not up, but Ohio on a different trip would be nice to visit.

    I have to order a ton o books and get the boat ready, but this is not a trip you plan over night. I think it will be about a month long, but maybe shorter. If I can get to the coast of Mexico, or in the other direction, visit Puerto Rico, I have at least seen a different country and got some ocean crusing down safely. There are tons of Islands down there. I would imagine with the right map one couldn't get lost.

    Thank you for the reply. I don't want people to think I'm heading out this week in a bad storm to test my new gear out! The boat, the gear, and the trip hasn't been planned yet.
     
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