Paint Help!

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by DeputyMike, Nov 6, 2006.

  1. ian_upton
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 49
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    Location: Grand Blanc, Michigan

    ian_upton Junior Member

    Jim,

    Are you located north of Markham, ON (GTA)?

    I am in Whitby and have a few paint related questions for a 1962 Bertram 25 with many (many) years of gelcoat crazing on the deck.

    I am interested in opinions and possibly quotes for paint.

    Could you shoot me an email?

    ian.upton@gm.com

    Thanks,

    Ian.
     
  2. buckknekkid
    Joined: Oct 2005
    Posts: 345
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    Location: north of pompano

    buckknekkid Senior Member

    Welcome to the neighborhood , mature Bertrams are still like fine wine. We're at Marina Quay West and our neighbor has a Limestone that is pristine. Except for the resident geese that set up their home on it.
     
  3. jbassion
    Joined: Aug 2004
    Posts: 63
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    Location: South Florida

    jbassion Semi-Pro

    Paint Questions---I have Awl Griped 3 boats and I'm still asking Awl Grip tech support questions. You can mix primer and paint Mfg's., but it's not recommended. Some people like Sterling paint because you can fine sand out mistakes, but use the Awl Grip primer. If most of the area you are going to paint is "flat" like the hull, roll and tip works great. If you are painting areas like the cockpit roll and tip is not a good idea. It's very difficult to keep the paint flowing in those areas. If you spray buy the best respirator that you can afford, throw away suits, and latex gloves. The hardest part about painting a boat is the prep. Buy shares in 3M because you will be filling, sanding, priming, sanding for weeks. The actual painting only takes a couple of hours.
    You can do it! good luck.
     
  4. jimslade
    Joined: Aug 2005
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    Location: north Markham

    jimslade Senior Member

    I'm in markham. Just on the north edge. On McCowan Rd
     
  5. Jimbo1490
    Joined: Jun 2005
    Posts: 785
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    Location: Orlando, FL

    Jimbo1490 Senior Member

    Painting with two-part marine polyurethanes is not really all that hard. It's actually quite forgiving stuff to work with compared with most automotive paints due to the long 'wet edge' time. BUT, you have to be patient, almost lazy when painting with it, especially with something small like your 20 footer. You can paint really big stuff with a paint like Awl-Grip without losing your wet edge. A consequence of this is that the paint 'flashes off' fairly slowly compared with auto paints, and this is where the novice marine painter gets into trouble. He paints Awl-Grip as if it were auto paint and sprays for FULL gloss and leveling on the first coat because that is what you must do with auto paints. This leads to runs (curtains, really :D ) and lots of sanding, cursing, tooth grinding, etc.

    The trick is to spray a 'tack' coat followed by one or two full wet coats. The three coat method is even easier and looks better too. The tack coat is shot intentionally a bit dry with no thought to achieving gloss or leveling, let alone color hiding. The wait time between the tack coat and the following coat(s) is CRITICAL! You should keep a clock handy to time your shooting/waiting time. If it takes say, 20 minutes to spray the first coat, then the paint you first shot has been sitting for 20 minutes by the time you finish coat one. Awl-Grip typically likes 30 minutes or so between coats (this time varies according to temperature) so in that case you only need wait ~10 minutes before beginning the second coat. A 'finger stick' test will tell you if the paint is ready for the next coat. Touching the paint lightly, it should feel just sticky, but no strings of paint should come off when you remove your finger. Waiting a little too long is OK after the tack coat. Waiting too little is NOT OK. (Don't forget to follow the same shooting sequence as the first coat; If you started the first coat on the port bow, then you will start each coat there and follow the same sequence!)

    Shoot the next coat heavier than the tack coat; a little bit heavier if you will be shooting three coats, a substantial bit heavier if you will only be shooting two coats. For the two coat job this is your LAST coat so shoot for gloss and leveling. For the three coat method, just go for color hiding and don't leave any dry spots, but don't go crazy with the leveling; save that for coat three.

    The three coat method is the most forgiving since you will wait again after coat two to let the paint flash. Then you have a pretty good substrate of sticky paint to 'grab' coat three which is what prevents runs. Spray coat three for FULL gloss and maximum leveling. This will be a very easy, forgiving coat to shoot, but will take A LOT of paint!

    With the two coat method, that lone tack coat will not support a super heavy second coat without running, which is why the three coat method looks better and is easier to shoot. With poor hiding colors (eg Snow White) the three coat method is the only way to go!

    We like to think about it this way: if using the two coat method, ~35% of the paint you will apply will be in the first coat with ~65% in the second coat. With the three coat method, the first coat is ~25%, the second coat is ~30% and the third coat is ~45% of the total.

    Jimbo
     
  6. Jimbo1490
    Joined: Jun 2005
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    Location: Orlando, FL

    Jimbo1490 Senior Member

    A couple more tips:

    Awl-Grip sands and buffs beautifully, even the very next day. The secret is the right buffing compound. In that regard, there is no substitute for the 3M Perfect-It line, especially the 3000 and 3000 Extra Cut. This is a case of getting what you've paid (dearly) for :D

    If you get a run and want to sand and buff it out, assess it this way: if it has little bubbles in it, forget buffing; sand and repaint. It it is OK for bubbles, only attempt it if it is small, say 3" laterally and no more than a half inch vertically. Sanding and buffing bigger runs takes real patience and skill and is often just not worth the time.

    Many painters report that the Sterling #1014 reducer works better in Awl-Grip than T0003 and makes the paint more forgiving to shoot.

    Jimbo
     
  7. alan white
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    Location: maine

    alan white Senior Member

    Any automotive painting shop can paint your boat. There's no difference except one is a boat and the other a car. The paint formulations are not very dissimilar either--- and some might even be used for either cars or boats.
    I've heard of Imron being used on boats.
    If you want to save money, and have a building to do the painting in, go to an auto-body shop and ask the owner if you might offer a week-end job to one of his painters. Often when work is slow, owners are happy to see their help making a little cash on the side. Your compressor has to be up to snuff, and the room clean and dust-free.

    Alan
     
  8. Jimbo1490
    Joined: Jun 2005
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    Location: Orlando, FL

    Jimbo1490 Senior Member

    Excepting maybe Imron 5000/6000 and Del Fleet Evolution from PPG, I know of no automotive paint that has anywhere near the long wet edge time that Awl-Grip or Sterling polyurethane has. Maybe Glassurit with the slow hardener. But then these are all considered 'fleet' finishes and many shops practically never shoot them. I've shot all of them because I'm in that kind of business, but when I worked in an auto body shop, we NEVER shot any of those fleet paints, for cost reasons. The Imron 5000/6000 and Glassurit lines are so expensive, no auto shop would ever consider either one; they just can't make money. Remember that insurance is 90% of their business and they just don't allow enough to use 'high-end' paints like that. Regular old Imron (now called Imron 5.0) shoots pretty much like the auto paints, maybe a little bit slower drying, but a long way from Awl-Grip, which is the system under discussion. Now with base/clear systems being the norm, it's less likely that a typical auto painter will have any experience with a fleet finish. The quickest way to ruin an Awl-Grip paint job is to shoot the paint as if it were JUST LIKE auto paint. It'll be curtains, I tell you, CURTAINS! :D
     
  9. alan white
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    Location: maine

    alan white Senior Member

    I have known rank novices to spray their own boats. Surely, someone who has painted hundreds of cars could master Awlgrip, or at least, do better than the average joe.
    My recommendation would be to use a paint formulated for marine use. Then to have a qualified technician spray the job. If it would save a lot of money, I would hire an automotive painter. This is what I was saying.

    Alan
     
  10. Jimbo1490
    Joined: Jun 2005
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    Location: Orlando, FL

    Jimbo1490 Senior Member

    I don't disagree with that; gun skill learned on cars is gun skill. But the technique of shooting the polyester urethanes is quite different from auto paints. I was reminded of this fact myself recently when I shot two cars for a friend to sell. We used a PPG base/clear system. Man does that stuff dry fast!!! You just about POUR the paint on with the gun! It took me a minute to get my 'car painter' hat back on but I managed OK. I was thinking to myelf "Man if this was Awl-Grip, the runs would have already hit the floor by now". So the painter should be cognizant of these differences. Awl Grip is over $120/Gal at jobber these days.

    Jimbo

    PS I retract what I said earlier about Imron 5000/6000 and Del Fleet Evolution being similar to Awl-Grip. While these paints do have similarly long wet edge times, I forgot a crucial difference; UNLIKE Awl Grip they are all ONE COAT paint systems, so all the fuss about tack coats and dry time between coats is meaningless as you only shoot ONE COAT.
     
  11. rpbarrell
    Joined: Sep 2007
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    Location: concord nc

    rpbarrell New Member

    hi ,i live in concord nc, about 2 hrs from you. i spray cars for a living and have sprayed my share of boats also. a high quality urethane does well on boats and is less trouble than gelcoat. price would be 1000$. and up depending on the condition of the boat. if it has any pores, it will have to be primed with a high solid primer first. materials are very expensive these days. it costs about a grand to prime and refinish a car. don't skimp on paint for a boat. cya rod...
     

  12. cbboatworks
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 19
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    Location: Wilmington NC

    cbboatworks Junior Member

    Paint quote

    Hello

    I paint boats for a living. I am located in Wilmington and The price is $125.00 a foot.That includes the primer paint etc.if interested you can email me.


    cbboatworks@aol.com
     
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