Origami steel yacht construction

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by origamiboats, Nov 30, 2001.

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  1. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Location: South Africa

    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    Brent,

    I saw you registered as a user on my webpage, had a few failed login attempts thereafter....

    For the record, your status is now blocked since I do not want your "usual" comments spoiling the message I tried to get over with my Page.
    Many will feel I am unfair towards you, but it is best not to start something that will eventually get ugly, period.

    However, feel free to use it and learn good boat building practices from it.
    I would also recommend you to read the "Technical" heading and get to grips with the basics of designs you were challenged with so many times and failed to answer correctly. It is very simply written for amateurs and even I can understand it;)
    Perhaps you can then answer the question Dskira asked you so many times and he still awaits your answer...

    Disclaimer: This is not a personal attack on you, just the protection of my interests and goodwill.
     
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  2. Northman
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    Location: Norway

    Northman Junior Member

    Bobola,
    others have summed up the technical arguments against the BS way of boatbuilding. As a paying customer I just want to inform you that BS does not provide any numbers or technical details with his plans. I have bought plans from BS, asked for technical details and received, no surprise here, nothing. My guess is the same as that of others on this forum: BS has no numbers and is not even close to comprehend how to calculate them.
    Regards
    Walter
     
  3. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Just to get that straight again.

    BS has not developed or invented the so called Origami Method, he has copied it! Others have done that long before he entered the scene. And they have done it the right way round and engineered their designs properly and to proven rules and scantlings.

    Nobody needs BS to build a "plates first" boat.

    Here are some links to alternatives.

    http://www.yago-project.com

    a proven one

    http://www.al-yachtdesign.de/baufotos.htm

    another proven

    http://www.submarineboat.com/pauls_boat.htm

    I don´t know this one.

    Regards
    Richard
     
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  4. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Location: Flattop Islands

    Tad Boat Designer

    I'm not saying that professionals don't make mistakes, they do, we all do....but usually we have systems in place to catch those mistakes....scantling rules for instance......rigorous keel design methods with double-checks.......

    Perhaps you have link to new information but it's my understanding that Mike Plant was a leading factor in the death of Mike Plant. First came operator error (running the boat aground twice), at least a contributing factor in the loss of Coyote's ballast bulb. A lack of time for testing due to scheduling would be another factor, not hauling and checking after grounding, and ignoring obvious vibration problems from the keel........I believe professional design/engineering would have rectified all those oversights.....had they been involved.....
     
  5. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
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    Location: North of Cuba

    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    Bobola, the I35 bridge collapse may have been more due to poor maintenance than poor design.

    "Since 1993, the bridge was inspected annually by Mn/DOT, although no inspection report was completed in 2007, due to the construction work.[21] In the years prior to the collapse, several reports cited problems with the bridge structure. In 1990, the federal government gave the I-35W bridge a rating of "structurally deficient," citing significant corrosion in its bearings. Approximately 75,000 other U.S. bridges had this classification in 2007."

    From :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge
     
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  6. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    And, as I noted here too:
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/me...eel-yacht-construction-248-33.html#post385450

    There is another called, origami magic
    http://www.origamimagic.com/

    See, plenty out there, and providing answers to questions too. If they can answer simple questions about their methods, one must ask the obvious, why can't BS? It's a no brainer.:idea:

    Exactly.

    Save your time, money, stress and marriage, check out the other sites if you're really into Origami style building. At least you'll get answers to your questions...
     
  7. welder/fitter
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: Vancouver

    welder/fitter Senior Member

    apex1 & Ad Hoc,

    http://www.submarineboat.com/pauls_boat.htm
    This is the 65 footer pictured on the "Transverse Frames" thread. I went up to Comox & did some welding on this boat. It belongs to Paul Liebenberg - last I heard - & was designed by Jack Carson. I know that Jack is an artist, but I have been told that he is not a "qualified" designer. I have no idea, other than what I've been told. The boat is 3/16" shell, built in the same manner as Brent's boats, but with two chines per side. Brent was the one who helped Paul to pull it together. I was hoping that Paul would have followed these threads & maybe contacted one of you to get your professional opinion, but I guess not.

    http://www.origamimagic.com/
    Is a company owned by Greg Elliot and Ron(?) sorry, the last name isn't coming to me, but I mentioned it further back on this thread, when "junk2lee" put up the photos of two 55' aluminum boats. Ron is the builder in the partnership, Greg... well, he'd have to fill in what he does. Greg has a lot of offshore experience, but I'm not sure if he is a "qualified" designer, either. Last I heard, Greg was planning to build in The Philippines, with a local partner.

    http://www.al-yachtdesign.de/baufotos.htm This is an interesting one that I don't believe I've seen before.
     
  8. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Welder/Fitter

    Thanks for those.

    What i would say is, speaking as a naval architect, which ever method "you" choose, which ever "designer" you choose, you need to ask a few basic questions first.

    1) Is the structure stuitable for "my" application. If so, please provide evidence, such as compliance with a known/existing regulation. Without this, the structure has no guarantee of being suitable.

    2) Is there a stability book, or at least a report showing the stability. This of course must be linked to a proper weight estimate. This identifies where the LCG/VCG are located and hence what happens if the final build is different and how it affects the stability.

    3) Lastly, who will build the boat. Without proper quality fabrication, the structure will last as long as the patience of the person fabrictaing it! If it is a home job, seek expert, and i mean expert advice from professionally qualified welders/fabricators. You only need a few hours of their time for guidance, if you're not in a hurry, every now and then. Anyone can pick up a welding torch and weld, hell even i can and have to understand the effects more...but, it doesn't make my weld any good!
    (Get the final structure build surveyed before outfitting too. This will tell you if you've made any mistakes/errors which you are unaware of, since this is not "your" profession).

    Which leads to resale....if you get fed up with the boat, for whatever reason and need to or wish to sell her, all the above have a significant affect on your resale price, not just the price but the available market that would like to buy her.
     
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  9. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Thats Anton Luft. He died two years ago but his widow is still selling the plans. Unfortunately there is no support now.

    Luft was as much a religious preaching, biased ******* as §²}ß but he at least did know what he was doing. And he did (of course) not build frameless. And he DID design and build larger boats.

    I think the guys with the Yago project are the ones one could ask for assistance when a Luft design is choosen. But that is just my personal impression and backed by nothing but their web presence.

    Richard

    and thanks to the anonymus who gave me positive feedback on my former post!
     
  10. welder/fitter
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: Vancouver

    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Thanks, Richard!
    I've looked for info. on Anton Luft before, but have never found any in English.
     
  11. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    He was as good in English as his brother in arms is in design!
     
  12. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Location: South Africa

    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    I had a look at the links Mike supplied and noticed something interesting and therefor I have to ask this;

    When is an origami still an origami?
    Many of those boats look to me very much like multi chine boats building by the frameless method pioneered by vd Stadt and others. Look at the photo of my first Stadt build in 1988.
    Stadt just made it easier for boats to be put together by having a jig in which the plates sit. Their plate offsets are also computer generated which guarantee a perfect fit.
     

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  13. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: Hobart

    pdwiley Senior Member

    Wynand, something that has been causing me to wonder - apologies if this has been answered before, the threads are long.

    How long did it take to build the external framing used to build the VDS 34' hulls, and approx how many kilograms of steel in it? What typical steel sections used?

    I can see the massive advantage if one were building multiple hulls in making the moulds/frames first, just wondering about the value if you were just building a single hull.

    At the moment I'm cutting & welding the 4mm plate to my frames. Tom Colvin was right when he said that I'd love 4mm compared to 3mm plate. That extra millimeter of thickness makes it lay a lot more fair and it doesn't distort anywhere near as much.

    PDW
     
  14. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Well, it really depends on your definition of origami.

    Origami…..Japanese art of paper folding.

    Exchange the paper for metal…and this is not true origami per se.

    Since the metal is not folded in the same way this is done with ‘art work’ made from origami. The metal is cut and ‘folded’, the paper is not cut.

    Thus, what this noun has come to mean is, building a boat without using frames, or, building a boat without need to roll plates and/or use a jig.

    You can define “origami” almost anyway you choose really, since the essence is to create the shape in the metal without the need for rolling or using frames set up on a jig (initially).

    In today’s language, it would be a “cut-part” or “kit” boat. The plates would be lofted on the computer, using the right type of software, and then developed into flat shapes. These flat shapes would be “optimised” to not require any rolling once joined together.

    It is all about not having to roll or use heavy equipment (for an amateur set up) to obtain a faired hull shape, and quickly.

    How you do this, is up to you….it is not fixed method. It is the principal that matters.
     

  15. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Not to be fussy Wynand, but who provided the links?

    aha....

    I think this "Origami" nonsense should end slowly. There is no such "method".

    we are talking the "frames first" or "plates first" methods here. Every other description is just a misnomer and should be avoided.

    On the rest you definetivley can comment much, much better than I can.

    Regards
    Richard
     
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