Origami steel yacht construction

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by origamiboats, Nov 30, 2001.

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  1. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    I fully agree (and let's not start on arc strikes again, I've got heaps of them....).

    In fact I'd buy a set of the plans if they were passed as structurally sound just in case I decided to build one. I spend more money than that on other stuff I might never use - you should see my machine shop.

    PDW
     
  2. SheetWise
    Joined: Jul 2004
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    SheetWise All Beach -- No Water.

    As one of the many who have read every post in this thread -- I can say that it has been very informative, in dozens of ways. Although, I do think it has devolved.

    This last reduction into reputation and banning is probably the least informative portion of an otherwise worthy thread. I'm going to really stick my neck out here -- and say that I often miss the rantings of WellyDeckHand (did I get that name right?). Welly was fun -- and I've forgotten what all the controversy was about, but as I recall he had multiple personalities. I may be mistaken here. Welly was fun.

    Brent is not fun any longer. I'm not sure if it's his incessant marketing, repetition, unwillingness to engage, or simply his personality. I'm not sure. But I am certain that there's nothing fun about engaging Brent.

    I want to leave it at that. Nothing personal, it just didn't work. And now (duck), I'll say again -- I really miss Welly ;)
     
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  3. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Brent Swain Member

    "Not everything which can be counted , counts, and not everything which counts, can be counted"
    Albert Einstien.
     
  4. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    "Nothing is more dangerous than the certainty that one is right.
    Nothing is potentially so destructive as the obsession with a truth one considers absolute."


    Francois Jacob
     
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  5. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Location: British Columbia

    Brent Swain Member

    I have no faith in anyone with a pre detrmined bias against origami boats, giving an impartial analysis. Their conclusions will inevitably be forgone conclusions. I also believe that the experiences my designs have been thru are far more conclusive than any paper calculations, especially by those who have clearly, themselves, demonstarated problems with math .
    I have little faith in anyone who believes that wooden and fibreglas boats, which often have structural problems, are fine to go to sea in, while origami boats which have had zero structural problems at sea, in 30 years of cruising , are dangerous and should be banned. I wouldn't submit to that kind of logic being given any kind of credibility, over well proven designs.
    I can't afford to give my livlihood away for free. Gotta eat. When I get full pension in a few years, I may give it away to womens shelters and transition houses, which I support to some extent at the moment.
     
  6. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    Ironic that you should quote a great physicist and mathematician after your attacks on those disciplines. Don't turn his quotes into platitudes he deserves better than that.
    Structures are definitive bounded problems, Einstein was talking about esoteric mathematical physics models.
     
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  7. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    MikeJohns Senior Member


    I had no predetermined bias. I was concerned when I saw your construction details, design and methodology. At that point I and many others here realsied you were compromising your boats through ignorance of sensible design procedures. Your response to people trying to tell you that has been farcical. With lots of comments such as you just made.

    There is only one person who is blissfully ignorant of the entire process from design to fabrication, modes of failure and long term inherent self destruct mechanisms.

    As for vindication, It's just not there:
    Look at the sample population for your statistics; a fleet of small semi-sheltered water 'gunk holers' built to a variety of standards most of which are improved from your design, a handful of boats from this variable fleet have undertaken blue water crossings.

    One which rested on a beach for a week or two, a couple which hit something all escalated into very dubious events to thwart serious observation of design incompetence.

    At the very least if you just get rid of those stress inducing hardpoints you might just structurally pass muster up to the 35 1/2 footer. Even then it doesn't work the way you thought it did. But I think you accept that now at least, not that you'd ever admit it.
     
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  8. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    Brent I don't want to bug you but since you declared you are the best designer ever and you told us that naval architect are blood suckers and the yachting community is corrupt, could you please gave me my answer:
    What is the GM of your any of your yachts with all the backing that go with the answer.
    You tried once but you gave the wrong answer. A big mistake.
    You have to answer. If not your 500 plus posts are just wrong and full of lies.
    So answer the question if you are as brilliant you tell us you are.
    Remember your are putting people in danger to die, if you are not capable to answer this question, and you are committing a fraude by selling plans that you don't comprehend nor give any stability caculation.
    30 years cruising will not cut the cheese. It just show you spend time on the water, like many of us.
    It is unfortunately that simple. You know or you don't.
    If you don't, and it seams that way, I will be glad to teach you naval architecture after you gave to all of us a profusion of mea-culpa, and I will guide you by your hand to an other forum where I will start teaching you. In your own Yahoo. With delight.
    Daniel
     
  9. rugludallur
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    rugludallur Rugludallur

    Since we're quoting Einstein

    Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.

    Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater.

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.

    Albert Einstein


    Jarl
    http://dallur.com
     
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  10. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Tad Boat Designer

    The three statements quoted above are complete fabrication....they are not true......

    1) Please supply a quote from anyone saying "the origami method is no good"....nonsense....it's just another way to build a boat......and like every other method, it has positives and negatives. Is frameless boatbuilding faster...yup....are frameless boats superior...nope......are they good enough....probably (at least to 36').....is origami any faster when building a conventionally framed hull and deck...yes...by a few hours welding the ends of the chines...but against having to weld pieces together to make up the "half pattern".....the difference is nothing.

    2) "demonstarated" (sic) problems with math.......total fabrication on your part......

    3) Let's use your metric.....a bunch of boats launched, sailed "hundred's of thousands" of miles, and no problems.....take a builder like Tayana....the Bob Perry designed 37'....600 built over 35 years.....and they're all still sailing (AFAIK)......wooden boats often have structural problems? Really...an example please....and yes we have all heard about the keels falling off racing yachts.....I'm asking for frequent structural problems experienced by cruising boats built of fiberglass and wood.

    And another fabrication "origami boats should be banned" nope....please supply a quote stating this.....hasn't happened....people have asked that Brent Swain be banned from this site...I don't subscribe to that idea....but folks here take strong exception to having every statement twisted into your own creation. People here, including myself, have real problems when you make statements which are untrue, you put words in peoples mouths, or attribute ideas to others which are fabrications. These are your personal problems and have nothing to do with origami as a method of building a boat. We, there are a number of us, see problems in your design methods, your lack of understanding of the stability characteristics of your designs, your poor structural design, and your poor workmanship in construction.....these are not anything to do with origami boatbuilding.

    A number of folks, including myself, have offered help to make your designs better, to gain better understanding of their safety and design a higher quality structure......there is no down side to this......
     
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  11. SheetWise
    Joined: Jul 2004
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    SheetWise All Beach -- No Water.

    Brent --

    You like Einstein -- so do I.

    You have offered the mysterious, you have many followers, and there are many people here -- with their eyes open -- willing to share in the awe and experience of new discoveries. This is the mother lode of all science -- but you have to be able to explain it.

     
  12. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    "For every problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious - and wrong".

    PDW
     
  13. waikikin
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    waikikin Senior Member

    Sheetwise, reading every post, thats a grand effort!
    I share your sentiment on Welly, I'm sure there's a "couple" of multiple personalities around these pages now.
    Just to stay on topic- Origami.
    All the best from Jeff.
     
  14. Skovian
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Location: Portsmouth, VA

    Skovian Junior Member

    Hey Brent,

    FWIW, I don't think this reasoning is very logical. Even if someone has a "pre detrmined bias against origami boats", they can't change the numbers. Math is math, measurements are measurements.

    People have doubts as to the claims made about Origami design. Nobody doubts that these boats have put thousands of miles under their collective keels, there is ample evidence of this in various other web sites, blogs, groups, etc. The most pressing questions, at least to me, are whether these boats are as strong as a boat of similar dimensions made with conventional framing; just how stable are they; are they adequately built or do they need something else?

    Having a NE look at these plans would put this to bed once and for all. Whether someone likes you or your boats or not, the numbers wouldn't lie.

    Personally, I like the look of your boats. They look really salty to me. That's why I started looking at them in the first place.

    Cheers,
    Michael
     

  15. bobola
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Location: Kansas City, MO

    bobola New Member

    Interesting but disturbing thread. I haven’t seen this much civilized fighting since Thanksgiving at the in-laws..!!

    My general feeling about what’s been discussed leans toward Brent’s general argument that if his boats were unsafe, they wouldn’t survive groundings or storms.

    And if one of his boats didn’t survive, and was found to be unsafe based on faulty design or construction methods, wouldn’t a boat owner sue for damages..??

    Is there a history of lawsuits against him?

    Is there a history of complaints against him from current and former owners of his designs?

    Are there any members of this forum owning one of his designs, who could offer an unbiased opinion?
     
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