Origami steel yacht construction

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by origamiboats, Nov 30, 2001.

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  1. Lampy08
    Joined: Aug 2010
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    Location: west coast canada

    Lampy08 Junior Member

    Hi Jarl, I’m not Brent. A little research would have shown you that. I’m currently working on a George Buhler design. I started milling up the yellow cedar that is so plentiful here, only to find that my wife is very allergic to it. So I started thinking about doing the same boat in steel. A friend of Brent’s suggested that I look him because she thought I could save time and money by building his way, and I found this sight while investigating.
    Has any one on here got any experience with the “ReadyWelder” the promo and testimonials make it look like a pretty good product in fact I couldn’t find any thing bad said about it. Lots of critics here so maybe some one has some useful concerns
    Dennis
     
  2. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: Hobart

    pdwiley Senior Member

    Which Buehler design are you building? I like George's designs, I bought a few sets of study plans off him before settling on my Tom Colvin design, mainly because I wanted a shoal draft hull and Tom is a steel boat specialist while George isn't. In fact IMO George's steel scantlings are pretty heavy.

    ON saving time & money building Brent's way, you may save a little time in getting the hull SHELL complete but it's doubtful if you'll save time as measured from start of build to launching a finished boat. IF you fit the framing that opinion here says is required I think you'll save nothing in time because you'll need to template, cut, fit and weld inside the finished hull skin with all the climbing in/out that involves, plus confined welding issues. You definitely will not save any money unless you're paying rent for a building site and can/will relocate the hull once it's weathertight to somewhere cheaper/free. Any money you can save on fit-out and rig will apply (or not) regardless of the hull.

    On the ReadyWelder (MIG spool gun), I've got one. I've had it for about 8 years, I don't use it a lot because it's a bit of a pain to hook my AC-DC converter to my big AC stick welder, and the Readywelder needs DC input. I've only used it with flux cored wire, not solid wire. It does work and works well. Feeding it from a 250A stick welder I can run flux cored wire fast & hot enough to burn through 5mm thick boiler pipe if I'm not careful. Stitch mode works too.

    I've just about finished all my frame welding using my stick welder and E4111 rods, mainly 2.5mm diameter. A fair amount of quality time with my angle grinders has caused me to wonder if maybe using the Readywelder spool gun might not have been smarter as it wouldn't have taken me long to knock together a good trolley for the stick welder (I've got 12m leads on my stick welder so moving it about isn't really necessary but the Readywelder only has a 3m lead). As I'm about to start on the hull plate I think I'll be swapping to the MIG spool gun. I'm working indoors so I'll probably also use solid wire & shielding gas to avoid all the grinding I can.

    I don't know if I'd be happy with ONLY the Readywelder, but it definitely does work and work well. I really haven't used it enough to comment on its longevity but that's the only caveat I've got.

    PDW
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2010
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  3. rugludallur
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Location: Iceland

    rugludallur Rugludallur

    Lampy08,

    I don't want to argue this point with you but a simple stylometry test indicates otherwise, interestingly it also indicates a match with other forum users, some of which have been banned.
    Hopefully you will post more frequently to provide a bigger sample of text to compare with.

    Regards

    Jarl
    http://dallur.com
     
  4. Lampy08
    Joined: Aug 2010
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    Location: west coast canada

    Lampy08 Junior Member

    rugudallur,
    The Buehler design I bought is Gandalf (I cut my reading teeth on Tolkien) and yes it's over built, he's proud of it in fact.
    I've built 26 boats and helped on 6 others. 10 of those boats were stitch and glue, so the thought of an "origami" boat appeals to me because of the similarity to what I've done before.
    The main reason I'm looking at something as small as the Swain 36 is because of the size of the sails. I need some that are going to be handle able for a burned out lighthouse keeper with an artheretic wife. My experience with stitch and glue building lets me know that the kinds of concerns the engineers came up with are easily remedied. And by the way thanks for the info, it will make the process go so much smoother knowing ahead of time what to look for. Even if I do build the 36’ I will likely do things to it Brent doesn't like. (bow sprit, junk sails...) and if I do the Buehler 42 I'll be putting on things he doesn't endorse. (bilge keels, junk sails)
    I can see I have a lot to learn. All I have for experience with welding is fixing farm equipment with an old aircraft generator hooked up to the PTO on a 1928 W4 McCormick Dearing tractor so, thus my interest in a pure DC type of welder. Keep the comments coming, knowledge no matter how it's delivered is good for brain.


    Dennis
     
  5. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    Sounds to me like you're jumping to stylometric conclusions based on a rather small sampling of Lampey08's writing. Of course that doesn't mean you're wrong, but your judgment seems rather hasty.
     
  6. bearflag
    Joined: May 2010
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    Location: Thousand Oaks, California

    bearflag Inventor/Fabricator

    [​IMG]
     
  7. welder/fitter
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: Vancouver

    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Ooh, look, "somebody's" version of a non-dinosauric design spiral.:D
     
  8. Robbo
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    Location: WA

    Robbo Junior Member

    proof?

    So-he says they're safe, you say they arent, quite a few have been built and none have been shown to have failed due to structural failure or instability?

    Doesnt seem to make sense to me??
     
  9. TeddyDiver
    Joined: Dec 2007
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    Location: Finland/Norway

    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    It's the designers responsibility to prove the safety by calcs (not by saying "trust me"), or the design should comply with a safe scantling rules or standards. Now it's a lottery who might get killed first. Does that make sense?
     
  10. welder/fitter
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: Vancouver

    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Dennis,
    Have you considered the alternatives in this method of construction? http://www.yago-project.com
    http://www.tadroberts.ca
    http://www.tantonyachts.com
    http://www.stadtdesign.com
    http://dixdesign.com

    While you may see posts stating that specific designs by Dudley Dix Design &
    Van de Stadt Design do not have transverse framing, a closer inspection will reveal that, in the case of the former, structural bulkheads & webbing for components take the place of transverse frames. In the latter example, when one is refering to the "quick assembly method"(see site for photos) I quote the following: "Due to the great accuracy, a shell with fair lines is formed without frames. The plate joins are then welded. They remain in shape because there are no hard points to disturb the line. The strengthening of the shell by welding in frames, floors, engine bed, chainplates, etc. is done later. By this method a hull can be built in a few weeks. The hull is built right-way up, so it doesn't need to be turned."

    Perhaps, as you say, you have the knowledge to build the boat you wish to with safe structural support. All I'm suggesting is that the above-mentioned design firms have qualified people whom have done that for you(possible exception being Gerd's Yago project?). Btw, if you have any problems getting info. on twin(bilge) keel design, let me know, as I have collected some.
    Mike
     
  11. Lampy08
    Joined: Aug 2010
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    Location: west coast canada

    Lampy08 Junior Member

    Mi Mike, thanks for the links. I nearly bought a Roberts 43 a few months ago it was “welded up and watertight” and for sale for $2,000.00. I figured even if it was a shoddy job it could be fixed. I wasn’t fast enough with my check book, somebody else got it. Dix’s Cape Henry could make a man fall in love all over again, but it’s too small for what I want. (6’2” standing head room, yes I know the BS 36 would need that change made to the cabin too.) Hadn’t looked at Tanton or Vanderstadt before. Some nice boats there.
    Any info on bilge keels would be helpful I tend to research things a bit before I try them so the more info the better. Thanks

    Dennis
     
  12. welder/fitter
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Of the boats built - we should really choose a specific length, I suppose - most have been built by others and they have taken all manners of superstructure form, interior layout, etc. .

    Though there have been stability issues with some of these boats, when those issues are raised, Brent blames the builder for not sticking to his design. Fair enough, though it is up to the designer to ensure that only those boats which were built as the design specifies are approved to carry his/her name. Unfortunately, as owners of some of Brent's designs are unwilling to make public criticisms of their own boats, one must speak of anecdotal evidence, such as some owners commenting that they must shorten sail early. It is important to note that Brent has not built hundreds of boats. By his own statements, it seems approx. three dozen. Of those three dozen, how many has Brent built and how many has he simply pulled together & tacked, leaving the rest of the job to others. I'd guess that, start to finish, he's built two. Just a guess, mind you. It could be one, or three. I know he had help on the first one he built, by his own statements.

    Alternatively, we can consider the knowledge base of the parties discussing these boats. On one hand, you have a collection of people who have formal education and experience in various areas of boat and marine vessel design and construction, as well as other engineers, fabricators, etc. . On the other hand you have Brent, a guy with no verifiable education in any aspect of boat design and/or construction, rather, many of his claims of his abilities, and of comments made in reference to his boats - marine safety inspectors, weld inspectors, etc. - have been proven to be false, at times, by his own statements. Do I have to drag them out, again, or can you read back & find them yourself?

    Finally, there is no logical reason to believe that several of us, from different parts of the world & different walks of life would band together to unjustly ruin the reputation of any person in some form of collective vendetta. A more logical conclusion would be that we, collectively, have tired of discussions interrupted with Brent's attempt to sell his "designs", and the drawn-out process of having to rehash the same arguments, which Brent ultimately disappears from, only to reappear with that same tired mantra elsewhere. Then, to have to revisit the topic, again, when Brent encourages supporters to join the site to defend his honour.

    It is very simple; everyone here has heard about Brent's designs & construction methodology. Further discussions are better held on the origamiboats group, where Brent can philosophize, endlessly, without reproach. But, while this thread is available to be dominated by Brent & those discussing his methods only, we others are free to call Brent on the carpet for his bullsh*t, especially where it denigrates other persons, approaches, etc. . Bluntly, if after reading the discussions that have taken place on these forums, you don't "get" that Brent doesn't know what he's talking about in many areas of boat design & construction, that is a flaw in your "make-up", not ours.
     
  13. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    The reason Dix get mention by BS with frameless method, is actually unfounded and based on the Dix 38 I built - let me clear this up.

    Dix 38 boats ARE NOT FRAMELESS.
    But that said, I commissioned the Dix 38 in 1991 as a production boat to be called the Force 38 after my company name then.
    To hurry things along, it was decided that to speed up fabrication of the hull, it would be fastest to build it over a former. When taken of the former, the hull would be fitted out with floors, stringers, full and partial bulkheads, and frames where needed before the hull is to be fitted out.
    Furthermore, to speed things up more, the deck was a GRP unit mated to a flange on the steel hull.

    Due to economic circumstances during 1992, I closed doors and only one 38ft boat had being built. The contract with Dix made it clear that if I do not actively market and produce these boats, the rights of the design returns to him. He then modified the 38 to be fully conventionally framed, added a steel deck and pilot house and this is now a very popular design.

    I would prefer for BS stop his unfounded ramble that Dix produces frameless designs based on assumption he made from distorting the facts of one boat I produced to suit his arguments. My Dix was built frameless method, but was framed after removed from plug...
    As always, BS knows more about things he has no clue about :mad:
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2010
  14. Jeff
    Joined: Jun 2001
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    Jeff Moderator

    If you would like to see Brent Swain banned, I was simply pointing out that the post feedback tool is a tool currently in place that if used by a number of people would achieve your goal. It also makes it much easier for me to have something numerical to go on if more senior members use it to give poor, dangerous, or rude posts negative feedback if they are way over the line. Obviously I do not encourage the system to be used to be hurtful, but if you feel someone needs to be banned because of what they have posted, this would be the time to use it.

    An intentional safeguard was put into place so no one person could impact another too easily. If a dozen senior members had felt as strongly as Richard during the past year and had used the existing reputation system as Richard did, Brent would be restricted from posting now automatically. Possibly it does not allow someone to be "democratically banned" as fast as you would like to respond to such issues; possibly it requires too much effort to click positive/negative before it can be used on the same person again; while imperfect, I do find it helpful to have at least some numerical tool to represent a large number of people's feedback to make the hard decision to ban anyone easier.
     
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  15. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Whats that Jeff?

    A attempt to make me look like the only one who is pissed off by BS ?

    And why did this last only for moments?
    Do we get censored when our comments become a bit critical?

    There have been many complaints by other senior members here, not by me only. I was not even the one with the most complaints. But I had the balls to say, what others just think.

    There has been a busy mail and PM conversation between several senior members and you in the past days. (and with me, of course we communicate privately as well)

    I will ask my peers for the permission to forward our thoughts to you.

    Regards
    Richard
     
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