Origami steel yacht construction

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by origamiboats, Nov 30, 2001.

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  1. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    Just to be on the safe side:
    What is the GM of your design. Please provide the complete set of calculation to back your answer. Which means the weight calculation in detail, and also the roll period and acceleration

  2. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    And to be very clear Brent

    As for an answer, a rambling about me will not do it, and a negative by your alias will not do it either.

  3. welder/fitter
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 407
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    Location: Vancouver

    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Speaking only for myself, I believe this to be the crux of the matter.

    I do not like to see someone with much to offer banned from these forums, and have had no issues with Stu Hearn's somewhat abrasive or critical posts, nor Richard's. These guys know what they are talking about, so one must forgive them if they lack patience & tact. I say the same for others whom have been kicked-off, though I appreciate that Jeff does not make these decisions lightly and attempts to give members multiple opportunities to correct themselves. Better great latitude, than a dictatorial moderator, imho.

    I do find issue with those whom advise, incorrectly, based on a belief, rather than sound knowledge. In discussions of design/engineering/construction of marine vessels & associated components, it is perfectly acceptable for those whom have the knowledge to agree to disagree about "best practices"; methodology, process application, cronology of steps, whatever. However, it should never be acceptable for one to offer advice, if based on a lack of knowledge. To some degree, we members rely on those with significant knowledge in a given field to point out where or how one member is misleading another. How they do so is not important.

    Specifically on Brent Swain: I believe that Brent should not be allowed to give advice on these forums in the areas of steelwork, design or engineering. He does not have the level of knowledge needed to adequately & correctly advise other members in these fields. While none of us are perfect & we will all make the odd error in advising another, there is a great difference between such a "brain fart" and Brent's lack of knowledge. As well, based on my own observations, we are willing to admit when we are wrong or when we are making a "guess". Yes, like others, I've lost my enjoyment in reading the "Metal Boat Building" section, because Brent and his buddies do tend to hi-jack the threads. He does encourage others to come to these forums to "defend" his designs, but most, like myself, realize that there is true knowledge here and "awaken", while the others usually fade away.

    Should Brent be banned? I don't know, that's a tough one. I keep hoping that he puts his ego aside, accepts his limitations and puts what he can learn here into practice. But I have to say that I honestly believe that he has delusions of grandeur, which make accepting a "student role" impossible for him. As it is we whom suffer from his delusions, not him, he has no incentive to change.

    How do you separate the act of being a member from the erroneous advice giving & constant salesmanship of his designs/construction methodology? I don't think one can. Perhaps, a blanket decision to not allow design info. by non-designers/NAs/engineers? What I am saying is that, as I am not of any of these categories, while I should feel free to ask questions of some half-baked design I might come up with, I could not "push" or recommend - market - my own designs, until I can show that I have acceptable credentials. Yes, it seems heavy-handed, but this is the only way I can see to address the issue without having to remove members. Alternatively, those without the credentials could be limited to posting their designs on one never-ending thread(like the one on climate change-lol).

  4. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Location: British Columbia

    Brent Swain Member

    I invite anyone on this site to send me $500, and I will send them a set of 40 footer plans. Another example of the disinformation campaign against modernizing metal boat building.
  5. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
    Posts: 951
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    Location: British Columbia

    Brent Swain Member

    junk FanTan.jpg

    40 ft junk, origami. I pulled the hull, flush decks , cockpit, keel, rudder and skeg together in 1980 in 21 days. The owner has since gone for a sloop rig, which he says is a huge improvement. He is extremely happy with her.
  6. wardd
    Joined: Apr 2009
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    Location: usa

    wardd Senior Member

    How many , or what percentage of his boats have come to grief?
  7. bearflag
    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 227
    Likes: 17, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 195
    Location: Thousand Oaks, California

    bearflag Inventor/Fabricator

    Why don't you take one or more of the engineers and architects on this forum up on their offer and send them a copy of your plans for free and they will conduct the multi thousand dollar analysis for free for you?

    You loose nothing because they have no intention of building your boats. It is not all that uncommon for boat builders to get cheap/free advance copies of plans that they use for consideration of building a boat. I am sure any of the professionals on the board would be completely satisfied with not disclosing any meaningful trade data.

    That seems patently more equitable in my opinion.
  8. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    Brent, you didn't answer, I warn you do not to ramble.
    And you also need to insult me?
    Don't try to turn around eather

    Just admit the truth: YOU CAN"T ANSWER THAT QUESTION:

    You are caught. Your business is based on a dangerous ignorance.
    Therefore this advisory:


    Sorry, it is my duty to recommend that your plans will be ignored for the safety of the people who surf the internet for plans.

    I will make ammend and retract if you produce the booklet.
    I don't have to insult anyone, like you do above, I am acting as a professional and report the danger you can cause by not been able to design a boat correctly.

    It is a life and death situation.
    You choose to ignore it. I will make sure that the people in eminent danger by building your boat knows the extent of your ignorance.

    Again sorry about that, but I stop been nice and will act professionaly.
    You had countless of oportunities to learn from good people, you choose to ignore them, to insult them.
    I will make sure that if someone buy your plans they will know the truth behind them and the shortcoming they represent.
    If they do, and choose to go ahead it's fine.
    It is when they don't know that makes me anxious for their life.

    I hope this post is taken very seriously, since I can document everything I said.

  9. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
    Posts: 951
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    Location: British Columbia

    Brent Swain Member

    30 years and hundreds of thousands of miles, including severe groundings in severe conditions have proven you dead wrong time and time again over 3 decades.
    I see you have sent me another private message, which I deleted unopened, which I will do from now on.
  10. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    And that is not the answer of this question:

    If you can't answer, you are not in a position to say anything about boats.

    Please answer this simple question.
    Since you maintain that we are blood sucker naval architect over charging my clients, you have to prove that your method gave better result.
    No proof you are guilty of slandering, lying and embezzling found from your customers, since they do not know the stability of their own vessel.

    Or I retract if you present the booklet. And I will apologise.
    Meantime it is my duty, to your own doing, top find you unfit to sell plans.

  11. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Location: British Columbia

    Brent Swain Member

    In 30 years and hundreds of boats totaling hundreds of thousands of miles including several cumnavigations , and many severe torture tests ,only one of my origami designs has ever been lost, on the west coast of Baja, when the owner abandoned her. That boat survived 16 days of pounding in surf several years earlier, with minimal damage, as shown in an earlier posting on this site.
    That constitutes an irrefutable structural analysis.
  12. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Location: British Columbia

    Brent Swain Member

    could prove dangerous.

    They have over 30 years and hundreds of thousands of miles , proven th exact opposite of dangerous.
    Many people go cruising to escape the bureaucrats, including many who use this site. And you say the answer is to impose more bureaucrats on cruisers? How European of you?
  13. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    Brent, you didn't answer, I warn you do not to ramble.
    And you also need to insult me?
    Don't try to turn around either

    Just admit the truth: YOU CAN"T ANSWER THAT QUESTION:

    What is the GM of your design. Please provide the complete set of calculation to back your answer. Which means the weight calculation in detail, and also the roll period and acceleration

    Structural analysis has nothing to do with what we are talking, since you can't talk SA without knowing the GM.

    So I repeat:

    I warn everyone to don't buy plans from Brent Swain, since he is incapable to provide the stability booklet of his boat.
    Brent is you shall these plan, you are a crook, since you don't know the stability, therefore you don't know if the customer will die or live.
    That simple.
    Answer the question.
    Or admit you can't.
    I warn you to not disgress, and don't try to flood me with anecdote.

    I will ask that to anyone who promote their product.
    nothing wrong with that.
    what is wrong and very suspicious is to not answer.
  14. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    This is the crux of any “open forum”. Anyone can say just about anything at any time. It matters not who you are what you say and whether it is true or false, fact or fiction etc etc it all pales into obscurity... it’s an “open forum”.

    Despite the “house rules”, it is clear that there is far too much leeway and a degree of cheery picking with certain members and their repeated bile.

    No one pays for a subscription here, and no one is vetted either to verify their credentials. Thus webmaster can do what s/he likes.

    Thus, an open forum is no different from walking into a pub. Anyone can, say what they like and do pretty much what they like, until the landlord has enough; which is also subjective and often inconsistent.

    In a pub, most sane/intelligent people would just laugh at such nonsense given by “I know everything don’t question me” types. (And there have been several on here and some still are on this site). After several exchanges it becomes clear to the “masses” listening in ear shot of the person grandstanding that said person has a delusion of grandeur and/or plain barking! Thus ‘we’ ignore and walk away…having no more ripostes to such bile leaves said person with no audience with whom to preach and sermonise. Eventually they get bored listening to the deafening silence and move on.

    If the webmaster thinks the behaviour such posters is acceptable on his/her forum, then it is for “all other posters” to ignore said poster and such rambling nonsense, and let said poster preach to the converted and let them suffer the consequences of their inability to rationalise and open a book to establish basic known engineering facts which said preacher simply ignores for convenience in the hope of “selling” their faith-based message to those that know even less than the preacher.

    As my friend once said many many years ago “…you can’t educate pork…so why bother”?

  15. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
    Posts: 2,316
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    Location: Flattop Islands

    Tad Boat Designer

    Or were they just lucky?

    I have a design that had, (as of Dec 2007) been built 356 (documented and numbered hulls) times. Another 30-40 were built before sales collapsed in 2008. They are fast boats, almost 30 knots, between them over 15 years they easily covered more than half a million miles. No circumnavigations that I know of, but they have certainly sailed on every major and most minor waterways throughout the world. Many have undergone "severe torture tests", according to me....:) None have to come to grief....as far as I know......

    What does that signify? Nothing.......
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