Origami steel yacht construction

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by origamiboats, Nov 30, 2001.

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  1. larry larisky

    larry larisky Previous Member

    westvanhan you don't get it either.
    after you read the posts you will run to my bar, saying no more :D
    a cold (just cold, not too cold) vodka is waiting for you and some cool ladies.
    and if you feel in luck, a little poker :?:
     
  2. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Location: Flattop Islands

    Tad Boat Designer

    No one is lynching anyone.....but statements like the above need to be examined. A lot of "added weight" is on deck or above. Things like steel masts, dinghies, outboards, fuel in jerrycans, two anchors on bow rollers, chain on the deck mounted winch, wind generators, solar panels, pipe lifelines, roller furlers, kayaks, liferaft, extra anchor rode, radar antennae on the mast or a steel pipe mast of it's own....and on and on......it all adds up.

    Perhaps you meant to say below the VCG? In that case the "added weight" (whatever that is in whatever category) will at least lower G. Often owner added weight is in the interior furnishings and systems, the centers of these weights in the typical small cruising boat are often above the waterline. Things like big fuel tanks and batteries under the cockpit. Things like canned food under seats is fairly low. But space under the vee berth is biggest up above WL and so the stuff stored there is up high.

    I'm in Silva Bay and available most of the time for an inclining......
     
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  3. LyndonJ
    Joined: May 2008
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    LyndonJ Senior Member

    You got this one totally wrong.


    If you haven't paid the threads relative to this much attention then how can you understand what's going on? Read it and the others and then you might see a glimmer of light :idea:

    Earlier in this thread or the transverse framing one not sure now. Various people tried to tell Brent about fatigue failures and S-N curves. And dangers of loading directly on plate adjacent to welds with no redundancy in the structure.

    Brent riduculed the concept of fatigue on the basis that it hasn't happened yet and said it was the same as saying the boat would fall apart in 4 hours.

    Since then he has twice said that Engineers are wrong about fatigue because they said it would fall apart in 4 hours.

    It was replied to in detail and pointed out that Brent was distorting the facts out of all recognition.

    Then again in his last series of posts another of the same line:

    This isn't just a mild observation it's a barbed jibe. Again read whats gone before.

    In return I'm pointing out what happens if we all distort things the way he does. I'm not making the point that his boats will fall apart.....I'm making the point that we can all distort what someone else says. And that fighting fire with fire would see no dignity.


    Unless you are in the running of what's gone before you have no idea. You are essentially walking into a discussion at the end and demanding it take a different course .

    So I can say truthfully that Brent says that NA's say that his boat will fall apart in 4hours.

    He has said that and it's not a distortion at all. If you cant find the relevant posts lets me know and I'll post you the links.

    But None of them ever have. Its just BS being stupid.

    Now do you Understand?:rolleyes:

    It's illustrating his technique and I'm just saying we can all do the hype and the distortions and thats that.
     
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  4. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Location: South Africa

    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    Here is your chance if you have the balls to prove us all wrong.....

    Jeez, 175 degrees positive righting moment:confused:
    If this will prove so by Tad the NA and he is respected in his field, I will be the first to publicly apologize that we were all wrong and all other boats by well known designers are crap.

    That said, you still build dangerous boats that has no calculated scantling. The workmanship totally crap as shown by photos elsewhere in this tread. Let MikeJohns run you an stress analysis he offered to do free of charge, and provide the changes/scantling that will make your boat safe. All you have to do is to supply him with the lines.
    Do this and I guarantee you all of us will respect you for that and you will earn some needed goodwill from the guys....

    Furthermore, your arguments this far were pathetic to say the least, and remember, newcomers to this thread will read not only your postings, but all the others as well and I am a betting man - which way do you think the scale will sway?
    This thread now has over 84000 views this far, a big number of that NOT from the "usual crowd" but NEW readers and how much potential customers do you think you have lost with your "hillbilly" arguments?

    Something to ponder about; My son recently bought a well known SA restaurant franchise and in his training he was told that statistics/studies have prove that one dissatisfied customer will make you lose 43 potential paying customers... How many dissatisfied "potential BS" customers have read this thread and is spreading the gospel of these posts and in short making a fool of yourself and your design:?:
     
  5. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    Unfortunately you really should read a thread before passing judgment. If you do so then all will be clear. This is what happens with long threads and discussions that follow over from other threads.

    It's not a rhetorical question, there's some history behind that comment.

    The comment was directed at me initially read my post here: click http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/me...eel-yacht-construction-248-40.html#post386494

    I was more than a little angry when I posted that but I can prove every point and it's all on record now.

    That's how Brent treats you if he finds what you say (or offer to calculate) threatening. He certainly twists and distort the truth dishonestly. Which makes him a hard person to discuss anything with. He is more than happy to make up dishonest posts and to lie when it suits him. He's very rude abrasive and prepared to call names and level all sorts of insults if you don't fall in behind his belief system.



    Is it really that easy? If you don't follow class rules then you should be able to show that you have calculated this yourself.
    Also before you can assess the rig loads it would be nice to know what the static righting moment was. Brent has never calculated any of this.


    There is a hard spot on the edge of the doubler where the pipe lands on the plate and theres a HAZ adjacent to the chine weld.
    The shear stress is a combination of the righting moment acting in compression through the mast and the dynamic load of the masts self weight itself also the hydrodynamically induced flexure of the bottom panel. Combine them and you'll have your stress. Then look up the allowed stress level for infinite stress cycles and you'll see whether it can tear the plate.

    It's not a trivial solution and this has been explained to Brent before too. But he prefers to keep dishing up the same tired old statements like a scratched gramophone disk.

    Maybe you'd like to have a try to talk to him?
     
  6. junk2lee
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    junk2lee Junior Member

    I haven't heard of any...
    It's another innuendo.
    Even when people say (I am paraphrasing),"there are generous offers of advice to make them safe" it implies they are not.
    the description of possibleweaknesses (such as MikeJohns above) rational speculations though they may be are still solutions looking for a crime to solve.Brent explained his thinking.... it hasn't been disproven.
    As to the model Brent described that righted itself at 175 degrees,why wouldn't it?Models in general WERE discussed fairly informatively but Brent's model was not confirmed or even considered to be inacurate.Instead,it was all about how impossible were Brent's notions-a digression on Vanishing stability which I don't recall Brent actually mentioning by name anywhere.

    Brent didn't come here asking for help...that could have been the first clue.
     
  7. Questor
    Joined: Aug 2010
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    Questor Senior Member

    I am quite excited about the possibility of looking into Origami Trawler designs. Are there any 28 foot designs that would be similar to the Camano 31.
     
  8. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: Hobart

    pdwiley Senior Member

    Then you haven't been paying attention because I, and 2 other people on this thread have said that we seriously considered building one of Brent's designs but walked away because of his ******** and ignorance. If I used Brent's debating technique I'd be justified in calling you a liar at this point.

    There's so much wrong with that approach that I'm not even going to bother touching it. Belief systems and empiricism will carry you a fair way but sooner or later you hit the limits.

    So you agree that Brent's model's ability to right from near total inversion has absolutely no bearing on the ability of a full scale boat to do the same thing? Fine. I doubt anyone here will disagree with you.

    Can you build a paper aeroplane and extrapolate its ability to glide to a 747, if the paper aeroplane has the same shape? If not, why not?

    Yeah, seems to me he came here looking for customers and nothing else. I really doubt that it's doing him any good. Probably the 36' boat is strong enough but who in their right mind would deal with someone with the attitude to workmanship and engineering displayed here?

    PDW
     
  9. welder/fitter
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    One site worth looking at is Yves Tanton's designs, as he has a few "origami" boats & may have a trawler design of this construction method. Also, search the older threads on this site, as I seem to recall such discussion in the past.
    Hopefully, someone viewing this thread will have more suggestions than I can provide.
    Best of luck!
    Mike
     
  10. welder/fitter
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Originally Posted by junk2lee
    Brent didn't come here asking for help...that could have been the first clue.


    I believe that it is the responsibility of members of these forums to correct mis-information, and expose frauds. If Brent can prove that he has done the necessary calculations and that his boats are well-designed, then I agree with Wynand's last post. If he can't, however, it is not the responsibility of the other members to wipe his butt for him.

    Why is it that some seem to feel that Brent Swain's advice and/or comments are considered sancrosanct? On these forums, and others, he has given advice that is incorrect and offered opinions which are questionable - given his apparent lack of knowledge of the considered topic. He has no difficulties with criticizing others.

    As it has come to my attention that Brent does engage in leaving negative reputation points, anonomously, I will be removing him from "ignore" status & following the same practice, rather than bothering to challenge his statements openly. I don't like that system, for the obvious reasons, but will comply.

    Mike
     
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  11. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    A fact I mentioned in a post just a few hrs ago.
    And I asked why we are behaving like nice guys when he dishes out negative.
    And how it is possible that such a person (I said cheater) still has positive rep points?

    Astonishingly that post disappeared.......................
     
  12. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Location: British Columbia

    Brent Swain Member

    Gerd Meuller of Budapest, on the origamiboats site has a powerboat design in origami, that may interest you. Or you can take plate shapes off any powerboat design you like. Make sure there is some curve in every part of the hull for stiffness and fairness. Experiment with models.
    It was Mike Johns who said that the hull may fail "eventually" due to repetitive flexing, in 1,000 cycles, which is about 4 hours at sea, implying that none of my boats in 30 years of offshore cruising has ever sailed more than 4 hours in it's lifetime.. I was just repeating his comments. With engine vibration , 1,000 cycles is about 15 seconds.
    These are the math skills that Mike Johns is offering to bring to his "Structural analysis." Like Bernie Made off, he comes with a pre conceived bias, and can be counted on to do Bernie Made off type creative accounting to prove his bias.
    I'll have to ask my Tasmanian friends if they have heard of any Mike Johns designs down there.
    There is a simple way of determining initial stability. When I put my 210 lbs on my bulwark, she heels about 2 inches. Go try that with any 31 footers in your anchorage, for a comparison.
    None of my 36 footers here on west Cortes, they are probably all on the other side of the island at the moment. I usually don't have to sail far to find one. Friends say that they are everywhere on the BC coast. I have yet to see a Mike Johns design anywhere, nor a Lyndon nor an AdHoc, nor a Welder fitter design, etc etc
    Wiley still won't tell us how much time he has in his boat , nor how far along he is. Too embarassed, I guess.

    The success of my boats over 30 years, and severe torture tests , are all the proof and structural analysis they need. Calculations which disprove all that their experience has repeatedly proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, time and time again, are wrong.

    How dense does one have to be, to believe that you can quadruple the amount of welding, cutting, fitting and grinding, without quadrupling the amount of time it takes to do all that?
     
  13. J3
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    J3 Junior Member

    I went back and searched and searched. What I found was:

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/me...eel-yacht-construction-248-18.html#post383149 -
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/me...eel-yacht-construction-248-20.html#post383787 -
    and http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/me...eel-yacht-construction-248-26.html#post384731 -
    I think it is clear that he was concerned from fatigue from major blows. (my words: at some point fatigue from major blows may break a structure that has survived x-amount of time real world. We don't have an idea what that number of major real-world blows is as it hasn't been calculated in theory even...)

    It seems it is you Brent who believes that you will have 1,000 such major blows in 4 hours. Have your boats been sailed in conditions where you get a "shake your bones" knock you off your feet onto the sole blow 1000 times in 4 hours? I don't know. Or possibly you assume the "hard 'whomp' off a wave" means every single wave, but it seems clear from the quote linked above this was not Mike's assertion at all. In any case, it seems the 4 hours you quoted many times now is your assumption.

    Myself, I accept "real world" proof of suitability for the task at hand if I can trust the (multiple) sources and it's fact and not sea tale.

    I don't understand stating over and over that Mike implied something which I don't think anyone else reads from his posts... it seems he made his thoughts clear in the responses linked above.
     
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  14. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    That's an old tactic for derailing an argument or discussion that isn't going your way: sieze on something completely minor your opponent said; twist it and blow it up all out of proportion; then keep pounding on it, instead of discussing the real issues.

    Brent seems to be very practiced at it; perhaps he should have run for political office.
     

  15. wardd
    Joined: Apr 2009
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    wardd Senior Member


    Which party should he run with?
     
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