Origami steel yacht construction

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by origamiboats, Nov 30, 2001.

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  1. raw
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    raw Senior Member

    No. It is definitely 2-3 degrees that is required. The calculations require the static waterplane shape to remain near constant to work.

    The data gained from such an experiment (displacement/LCG/VCG) is then used to calculate everything for much larger angles of heel on the computer model.
     
  2. junk2lee
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    junk2lee Junior Member

    Really!wow....that's impressive!I hope I'll see this "in action"!
     
  3. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Ask Brent to show one in his “sales” video’s of his endless designs he has done. Since he is the consummate professional!:p
     
  4. freshnel
    Joined: May 2010
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    freshnel Junior Member

    COG Stability etc.

    As a couple who have built and are sailing a steel boat (43 roberts) and who have seen and talked to a LOT of people who have them. This whole notion of stabilty, righting moment, is in our opinion moot. As a rule of thumb
    home builders overbuild their boats mostly with equipment, interior construction weight etc. etc. We have only seen one steel boat that was at its original waterline. The balance were considerably heavier. Some are stable, some are not, many have additional ballast to correct above waterline weight. My opinion of naval architects as well as some of the people who have built steel boats is that the plans and specs are ideal and are more for marketing and in reality the boat displacement is more often then not 10-20%
    greater then design. While this can be disputed the fact is most cruisers have heavy battery packs/inverters/solar panels/liferafts/inflatables/outboards etc etc.These "standard items " are not included in plan displacement and thus affect WLL,performance,handling etc.
    About 5 years into our project we saw a B Swain book on orgami construction and if we had seen it earlier would have seriously looked at his boat designs. While we have never met the man We had read posts of his on MBS website. For the home builder his advice and ideas are valid and could cut production time considerably. Many of his ideas are plain and sensible
    and we see no flaws in his designs. Personal attacks on him are inappropriate
    and numerous on this site. A backyard builder must review the boat design
    and construction and make informed decisions. We have read about certain
    design flaws in "major" Naval Architects plans so just because they are
    well known and their boat designs are on the water doesn't mean their word is final. It appears that many comments are by armchair builders and professionals with an axe to grind and not constructive in providing practical
    advice to would be builders, Give the man a break and get back to helping
    builders.
     
  5. magwas
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    magwas Senior Member

    Any evidence of this?
     
  6. Skovian
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Skovian Junior Member

    Normally I wouldn't chime in on this, and I expect that others will go into a lot more detail than I, but your quote is not exactly accurate.

    Brent has a way of building a sailboat and has shared it with many people. A lot of these people are "in the know" and have asked questions about his technique. These are professional boat builders, naval architects, engineers, etc. When they kept asking the same questions, the verbiage and tone in Brent's replies were that they "just don't get it." Brent's "science" is circular arguments based on incorrect facts. This has happened on more than one thread here and probably elsewhere.

    For instance, on another thread another member used computer modeling to show that the "phenominally strong" arc was not as strong as it would be if the boat was built using transverse framing. Then Brent sounds off on prestressed concrete, arcs in Roman waterways, and everything else and usually finishes with something like "are they all doing it wrong? ********!" These same people who have paid years worth of bills with this type of knowledge attempt to show him why his reasoning is not correct and Brent comes back with another piece of anecdotal evidence. The same type of argument is shown in several posts on this thread, too.

    IMHO, the problem is religious. Brent honestly believes that what he's saying is gospel and everyone else just has to listen and they'll convert. When they don't, he starts hurling "facts" that don't add up, stories that aren't corroborated, and just about anything else except answer the questions that these other professionals ask. In fact, the people on this forum have repeatedly asked for some of the most basic drawings, not construction drawings, but very simple line plans, and he's unwilling, or unable, to comply. I don't want to say "he started it", but ... you know. Watching this has been tedious for everybody, at least for me. But I never could drive past roadkill without staring at it.

    In fact, I too gave his origami building technique some serious thought. But, since reading this thread, and several others like it, I have seen the light, the white light, the bright light, the guiding light, I have the vision.

    Cheers!
     
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  7. eric le marin
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    eric le marin naval architect

    Ohoh !
    First time I heard of this origami boats, and i discover that I actually built one !
    I copied under here a post I did two month ago.
    Before someone throw the ball : I do have structure inside the hull, and I followed conventionnal scantling practices. I just welded the stiffners inside the hull AFTER the shape was made.
    I have not found a good software to model the hull of my boat and "develop" it, so I would be very happy to have a clue on that topic.

    PS: how much do you pay me to compete in the demolition derby ? I believe my stem has good chances to win:D
     
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  8. junk2lee
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    junk2lee Junior Member

    Bonjour,eric le marin!Fantastic!
     
  9. LyndonJ
    Joined: May 2008
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    LyndonJ Senior Member



    BS has been his own worst enemy he shaped the debates with his rude and abrasive replies and he treated many very polite posters with malice rather than concede any simple point where he's actually wrong.

    The guy has one huge ego problem. That's why he was being hit with 2X4's it's the only way, believe me.
    I can give you heaps of examples where BS says something stupid gets corrected politely and helpfully and in turn calls names and rants like a small child throwing a tantrum in a supermarket, calls names, slurs, and lies and generally tries to denigrate people in response aka mud throwing. Is this the man you want to design your boat?

    Why should you give someone a break when they are promoting dangerous ideas ( like transverse support simply isn't needed in 60 foot steel boats ) and basing their belief on misunderstanding of basic engineering?

    All anyone ever wanted to do was talk it through. The responses from BS vary from rude dismissal to outright defamation, the more correct and knowledgeable the poster is the more he attacks them personally to deflect the valid points made. Read it for yourself. He just avoids all pertinent points with personal attacks or marketing based on anecdote. If those professionals then lay it on strong in return that's their absolute prerogative.

    The detractors aren't armchair sailors and amatuers as you imply they are experienced skilled boatbuilders and designers, naval architects and engineers. All trying to tell BS he's mistaken in some of his reasoning and offers of help and advice have been rejected rudely by Brent Swain. That's the reality that you are missing here.

    Stability is a very important point, it's the starting point for loading the boat, if your boat has 175 degree stability then that battery can go on the deck, if it has 110 then it better go in the bilge offshore so better too had your anchors and chain etc.
    Brent tried to mislead people by saying he'd calculated stability when he hadn't. That's a pretty serious charge and it shows his nature well, he's been a little creative with the truth on a few occasions and been caught out. But it goes beyond marketing and become something unwholesome.

    The only important thing to BS is his ego, not the quality of his end product. That's whats upsetting to many of the designers and builders here The whole origami cottage industry needs to lift its standards and people shouldn't get sucked into BS's twisted logic.

    You can't believe inconvenient facts away, religion and engineering don't mix and BS if offering a religion. IMHO
     
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  10. LyndonJ
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    LyndonJ Senior Member

    Ce bon

    Thanks for the post Eric. You have a beaut little boat and you followed the same sort of folding as Brent uses. Your approach to the structure is a little different though and is a lot more sensible.

    I think Origami has a lot to offer the smaller boat builder, are you selling your plans?
     
  11. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    I think you pair have done a wonderful job as well, for what it's worth. If you get as far south as Tasmania, I've a spare mooring in the bay out the front of my house here and a shop full of tools if you needed to fix/add anything. Slipway is less than 10 minutes away.

    Re the barn, yeah, I leave my tools exactly where I finish for the day, just walk out & close the door. It was pissing rain all yesterday, I was happily welding, I don't care if it's snowing and blowing a gale. Biggest problem is my welding hood fogs up periodically when it's really wet outside. Steel doesn't rust as fast as you add it to the hull and you don't have to get water out of the hull. I've seen what happens when people build outdoors in wet climates.

    I knew the project would take a while so it made sense to build the barn first. No instant gratification of looking at a hull but long term, after the boat is finished I still have a big secure workshop.

    Look, here's a quick summary re origami as I understand it.

    1. Nobody is disputing seriously that you can't build a hull this way.

    2. It does appear to be a faster way of getting a hull skin welded and weatherproof than frames first, skin later. Downside is that you are far, far more limited in possible shapes. If you like the origami shapes possible, this isn't a problem.

    3. For small hulls (esp say a dinghy) the material strength is fine and you're not going to be doing the sort of things that cause it to fail.

    4. The technique definitely does NOT scale up. Where's the limit? It appears to be around the 36' size.

    5. You are going to end up with a heavier hull than a conventional frame design. That extra weight is in the hull plate so spread out over the entire vessel rather than as ballast low down.

    6. Math is IMPORTANT and disparaging it because you don't understand it or it leads to conclusions you don't like is plain idiotic.

    PDW
     
  12. welder/fitter
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    I leave the "concerns with design/lack of calculations" to those who know better. The steelwork aspect, however, is something that I know. Go back & look at the photos on this thread. Those welds are not the exception to the rule, they are typical. I've seen the same poor work on 4 boats that Brent has "pulled together" or done fabricating on and you wouldn't have it on your own boat, nor me on mine.

    Many comments by armchair builders? Who? I built two fish/passenger boats, when in my late 20s, have worked on several steel sailboat projects(other owners) and worked in the local shipyards, drydocks, other marine vessel repair companies, both, as a welder and a fitter. As well, I've owned 4 sailboats & spent time in the navy & coast guard, including 8 months at the coast guard college. Wynand is a retired professional boatbuilder, with many builds to his credit. Tom ("Tazman") is building a 26(?) footer that Brent designed, and the list goes on.

    Read the MOM site & consider what they are alluding to, accepting that it was a Shaler build, but to Brent's design. Each phase of construction cost them far more than they had been told it would. Note, on various sites, the discussions over how quickly the owners of some of these boats have to shorten sail when the wind comes up. The first "Brent boat" I viewed was in the 30 to 32 foot range. The reason that the couple was selling it was that they found it "too tender". It was not their first boat.

    Brent is abrasive & has questioned a lot of people's integrity. "As ye reap, so shall ye sow". He misquotes/uses others' quotes out of context, to discredit them. An example of this can be found a few pages back, where he tries to diminish my comments to a criticism of "bloom" on Alex's boat. Do you honestly think that someone with my experience doesn't know about the value of bloom & that I'd confuse it with poor steelwork? C'mon.

    If you had built a Brent boat, rather than the one you have, it would have taken the same amount of time - or longer - to complete every phase of construction, other than the completion of hull & deck, if you built to the same standard of quality as on your BR43. If you had used the same quality of fixtures & rig, you would have spent the same amount of money on the fixtures & rig. Look at what you've built. Compare it to a 40 foot Brent boat. Which is worth more if you were to sell each in the same market? It is obvious.

    Mike
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2010
  13. Brent Swain
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    Brent Swain Member

    I am enthusiastic and thoroughly believe in what I do, for which I owe no one any apolog. Having launched my boat one month from the time the steel arrived ,I cringe when I see people starting to do many days of what has been proven to be totally unnecessary work, using grossly outdated building methods.
    The MOM project hired someone dedicated to maximizing the number of hours in the project for maximum personal wages.
     
  14. welder/fitter
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Well, as I pointed out, it wasn't a build that you were involved in. As well, I should point out that the owners had most of the build done on their behalf. On their site, they point out that there were higher costs experienced than that which they had expected, in every phase of construction. I am not suggesting that they could not have saved money by; a) Doing it themselves, and/or; b) using used fixtures and recycled materials.

    I do think that you should tell people that the cost to build one of your boats will vary, drastically, depending on who builds it & the materials & equipment that they use. Though it would seem to some that one should have an accurate expectation of the required budget, this doesn't seem typical in one-off amateur builds. We all know of people that have had to "throw in the towel" on a build, because they really couldn't afford the build in the first place.

    Remember the post from the C&R forums I re-posted on this site. Haidan's estimate for building a boat was about 2x your estimate. I suggest that both of you are right, that it is up to the builder's/owner's choices.

    I also want to point out that I agree with you when you state that you owe no one an apology for your enthusiasm, nor for your design. I believe that what is being said on these forums is that a few calculations and, perhaps, the odd change/addition would give you a design that any plan buyer could have confidence in. It's still your design, Brent, working out the numbers or making the odd structural change/addition won't alter that fact.

    As far as my criticisms about the steelwork we've discussed, a couple of days with someone who has the skills would be all that you'd need. I would be willing, as would others whom you have a less adversarial relationship with, to sit in a booth at BCIT - or, wherever - for a couple of days & give you a few pointers. If you don't want my help or do not wish to accept my suggestion of getting help, "No thanks", is all that is needed, you don't need to lip me off, and you know that I'll respond, in kind.

    Two ways of looking at this. One; believe that people on this site are trying to destroy your name & your ability to sell your design, because of envy/vindictiveness/loss of earnings/whatever, and nothing changes. Two; recognize that, just like anyone, you have limitations, and improve the weaknesses & be remembered for a design that could be built by the average person. If the results mean that you have to add 50, or 100, hours and $100, or $1,000, to estimated hull/deck build time & costs, so what? It is still much less than the competition(as far as I know/have seen).

    Mike
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2010

  15. bearflag
    Joined: May 2010
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    bearflag Inventor/Fabricator

    ::thumbsup::

    I agree with this sentiment, and I think it is echoed by "nearly" everyone on the board.
     
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