Origami steel yacht construction

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by origamiboats, Nov 30, 2001.

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  1. welder/fitter
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Fair enough, Brent. I recalled that there was some past discrepancy in regard to BC Marine, so perhaps, I confused BC Marine with some other similar company you had mentioned working for.

    The welding supervisor at Canron - I apologize for using "welding foreman" - was Nat Wingate, The short fellow with the messed up leg(from his time in The Middle East). The reason I say that he is well-known & well-respected in the lower mainland is that he is the CWB inspector(W47.1 lvl2) for the student & public welder certification testing at BCIT and Kwantlen College.

    Look, it may honestly be your belief that welders/fitters/fabricators grind metal to make their jobs last longer, but you should know that none of us like to grind, we do it because we have to. The various standards call for it and management & supervisory staff demand it.

    Now, forget about what I saw in 2007 for a minute(Alex's boat). As you may know, I have the video, as well. I, obviously didn't pay close attention to it, as I did not realize that the fitting and welding example - that "Mike Johns" posted - was on there. You have to admit that it looks like a friggin' abortion. As well, you know that neither Nat Wingate, nor any of the others, would have accepted that quality of workmanship. Finally, it is not easy to believe that someone who did that welding has had welds accepted by an inspector.

    So, I figure that maybe you're getting older & a bit shaky, maybe you had some reason for trying to set a new personal best in build time, maybe you couldn't get your welder to a lower amperage, whatever. You may not feel the need to dress your cuts, but you should be teaching best practices. So what if you have to add time to the build to follow proper procedure? Hell, if you had to add another 50 hours, it would still be only a week's worth of full-time labour and, as another mentioned, you could have the owner/builder do that, with you supervising - at first - later, when you've gone for the day.

    Professional welders won't charge 3 to 4 times what you do per hour, an owner/builder can easily hire a professional welder - with boat building experience - for $30/hour. Of course, the owner would have to supply materials, consumables & equipment, as they do for you. Yes, if the welder had to relocate from another area, he/she would expect travel expenses and room & board, at the very least. But, in most cases, there are top quality welders & fitters available up & down our coast. Heck, if one member of this board, "Sean Herron", has free time, he might be a perfect candidate for anyone you know who is wanting to start a build(Did you see his bulbous bow photos? A thing of beauty!).

    While I think that it would be of value for you to listen to the advice of others on ensuring a top quality boat, my motivation is obvious; if you insult others, you deserve no better treatment, yourself. So you've seen a couple of Gazelles - and at least one Roberts 345 - that weren't built well, so you have a philosophy of boat building that is counter to tradition. You don't have to talk **** about others when trying to sell your own stuff. You don't have to make exaggerations of what other designers, builders, workers, etc. will charge a prospective owner/builder or fearmonger about how they will screw them over. If your design and construction method is attractive to someone, you shouldn't need to criticise others, it should sell on it's/your own merits.

    I can only speak for myself, but, I don't believe that we are "anti-Brent" - turn the perspective around about 180degrees - rather, we are anti-Brent insults, rants, bile, etc. .

    Mike
    P.S. Sorry, I screwed up the quote. In a hurry.
     
  2. junk2lee
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    junk2lee Junior Member



    well,no,that's not "fair enough".after insinuating over and over that Brent's a liar,an up front apology might be in order,but instead it's"I figure you're getting old and shaky"....Brent's not lying about his boxing either,by the way.......but you're a good enough writer that I can hear a bit of simpering in the aww,Heck stuff
     
  3. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    I see no reason for anyone to apologise for calling Brent a liar. For example, this comment about shop welders is blatantly untrue:

    If he's never seen shop welders grind well-cut edges, he's never worked in a shop. So either he's lying about never having seen it, or he's lying about having worked in shops. QED.

    And there's no excuse for him being arrogant enough and snotty enough to call DOT-certified pipeline welders 'crappy burners.'

    When I pointed out that our welders could weld rings around him, he fell back on, "I told you: I never do the finish welding." WTF does that have to do with the fact that he's insulting genuine professionals, when he isn't qualified to be their helper? Our helpers take wire wheels and grinders into the hole--in spite of Brent's claims that wire wheels don't work and grinding is unnecessary.....
     
  4. welder/fitter
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    LMAO!
    Boy, are you ever off the mark! "Fair enough", as in the BC Marine portion, ONLY. I don't doubt that Brent may have worked for Canron, etc., but do find it extremely far-fetched that he was a welder or fitter when he was there and I guarantee that freehand cuts were ground. I could possibly "buy" that his welding machine was too hot when he made those welds, but an experienced welder would have fixed the issue rather than carrying on. So the only other possibility I could figure was that maybe his eyesight is going.

    Yeah, I know all about Brent & his boxing. So what? Is that supposed to intimidate me? Not going to happen. You're a child throwing a temper-tantrum. Not even enough balls to identify yourself. Boo-*******-hoo!

    Addition:
    Look, use some simple logic. When a shop needs something welded that will be UT'd, they choose one of the "top dog" welders.(It's a bit different in shipyards, on pipelines, boilershops, etc., because most welds could be picked for testing, so every welder has to be high calibre. I suggest that Brent has said, on the origamiboats site, that he didn't go through a formal welding program & that he hasn't held tickets. Add the blown-up photos of the welds on Alex's video. I have seen other boats that Brent welded, as well. Why should I apologize for drawing the obvious conclusions? Sorry to pop your balloon, but bullsh*t is bullsh*t. Picking a fight with me won't change reality, so give it up!
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2010
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  5. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    Brent Swains Origami boats may be dangerously unstable



    And I explained this in detail before so you would not resort to using them as spin again after the last attempt..

    So this proves that you do indeed have credibility problems doesn't it !

    When you start throwing wild accusations around just to point score you expose your nature to everyone. ( Except perhaps your die hard accolytes) I think disgusting sums up your conduct when you start stating falsely that someone defamed someone else.

    Especially when I said nothing even remotely close to that. That's one low debating tactic.

    Anyway enough rant for the moment. There's enough facts to prove that you are fraudulent with your claims now. You've cut through the limb you were on.

    Here's a question for you:

    How are you going to go about telling everyone that the stability figure you quoted was deceptive and that you lied here about their derivation? Since
    this is a very serious issue. Some 'glossing over' is almost acceptable marketing but to falsify stability data is criminal.

    Re weld cracks:

    Yes welds crack often enough in steel vessels unless the welds are properly executed and the vessel is properly structured. Then they don't.
    The failed welds are often on home built boats or poor plate repairs on professional built boats after patching.
    Most of the cracks don't photograph very well since they are just a hairline crack in the HAZ. A lot of older steel boats would find a few if they looked particularly in the higher stressed areas. It's another reason for structural redundancy requirements in class rules.



    There's also some reports of Brent boats cracking welds around the engine mounts including cracks propagating into the outer plate. Could you comment on that too. There have also apparently been cracks in some skeg to hull welds Do you know of this ? There's aslo been some corrosion problems and weld failures in some of the skegs , a combination of immersed welds and high vibration. A very poor combination for unpainted metals since it accelerates fatigue failure considerably.
     
  6. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Here is IACS, minimum standards of acceptance when cutting:

    Cutting.jpg
     
  7. larry larisky

    larry larisky Previous Member

    cool off junior and learn how to read.
    if you don't know the difference between a lie and the truth, too bad.
    what about your boxing story? who f....cares.
     
  8. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    If Brent talks down to honest working men in person the way he talks about them online, he probably needs to know some boxing. When I was younger and shorter-fused, I would probably have *****-slapped him off his bar stool for his condescension and arrogance.

    I'll have to admit, that's a fairly original and unique argument: "I do crappy, quick-and-dirty work because I care about my customers--and also about the environment.":p :p :p
     
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  9. TomThumb28
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    TomThumb28 Junior Member

    That's what irritates me the most, it would be one thing if Brent were arguing that his methods are adequate but he goes way beyond that trying to portray them as virtuous.
     
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  10. LyndonJ
    Joined: May 2008
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    LyndonJ Senior Member

    BS is just one big BS marketing machine for himself.

    Marketings subject to distortions but hey within a code of conduct, but obviously B doesn't even hold to that code. Anything goes with Brent.

    Read his posts stripped of everything where BS was quoting himself, using straw man arguments or commenting on his own design or quoting an unidentified third party.
    Then you realize everythings implied, nothings ever proven and if it's disproven he just goes really quiet. His book contains the same hype and the very little fact he puts in there is often wrong too.
     
  11. Brent Swain
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    Brent Swain Member

     
  12. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Brent Swain Member

    I find a far simpler and quicker way to get slag off an edge, is to take a big piece of half inch plate with a sheered edge, and slide it along the plate, until it collides with the slag on the edge. It neatly sheers the slag off, leaving an edge clean enough to weld.
    Another way is to tilt your slightly torch away from the piece you want to save, onto the scrap piece, the slag all blows onto the scrap , leaving he piece you want to save with a clean slag free edge.
    The only grinding I ever saw was to remove slag from the corners, the clean burned edge surface was never ground, except to put a 45 on it..
    Boy, that hulk Wynand posted was sure a pile of rust, Who would pay anymore than scrap value for such a rusty hulk. Can you imagine anyone actually sailing such a rusty hulk? They'd be covered in rust in no time! What kind of sucker would buy such a rusty boat.

    This is what you get when you pass judgement on an unfinished job.

    Names are comming back. John Perry was the foreman at Great West Steel in Burnaby. I ended up working with Raymond( Rusty ) Owen who I hadn't seen since grade eight.
    At Mainland, I worked with Bill Moore, Bill Hadock, Spaniard Hector Connessa( Whatever ju do, don't sail to Fakkina Spain)
    I left there before they move to Richmond. I dropped in at the Richmond plat in 83 and the foreman John Veitch said "Do you want a job?" I said "No thanks , I've done my one month quota for this year."
     
  13. Brent Swain
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    Brent Swain Member

    Then you realize everythings implied, nothings ever proven and if it's disproven he just goes really quiet. His book contains the same hype and the very little fact he puts in there is often wrong too.[/QUOTE]

    The beaching in the photos is proof, far beyond any abstract predictions to the contrary. My book tells you how to build 540 gallon per day watermaker which Wolf( wolfwatermakers.com) has used since 1998 with no problems.
    The woodstove in it I have used for decades with no problems , The blocks I have built in 20 minutes for under $2 I have used for decades and many Pacific crossings with no failures of any kind, No one else has had any fail. The engine driven welder for under $50 I have used for many years with no problems. the ten dollar aluminium hatches I have used for decades with no problems. The roller furler I built for $80, I have used since 1980 and several pacific crossings with no problems. Some have used it for circumnavigations with no problems.
    The lavac type head I built for under $20 , I used for many years with no problems , the composter head I built for under $50 , I have used for several years now with no problems. The bilge pump I show in my book , which I built for undr $10, I have used for many years now, with no problems. The 31 I built in the summer of 84, and is in the photos, I have crossed the pacific on many times and cruised 11 months a year ,since 85, I have no problems with.
    I use the stuff in my book, which makes me far more qualified to comment on them than those who refuse to try them . Anyone who buys my book will save many times what it costs them. Anyone building or fitting out any kind of boat, made out of any material, would be foolish not to buy a copy. It will save them a fortune on the above mentioned items. I take great pride in helping them avoid paying grossly inflated prices for the above mentioned items in a ship chandlery.
    If I piss of those who are trying to sell such items at grossly inflated prices I take that as a compliment.
    Ditto grossly overpriced boat hulls.

    I guess being chased by you paparazzi is the price off fame.
     
  14. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Brent Swain Member

    The beaching in the photos is proof, far beyond any abstract predictions to the contrary. My book tells you how to build 540 gallon per day watermaker which Wolf( wolfwatermakers.com) has used since 1998 with no problems.
    The woodstove in it I have used for decades with no problems , The blocks I have built in 20 minutes for under $2 I have used for decades and many Pacific crossings with no failures of any kind, No one else has had any fail. The engine driven welder for under $50 I have used for many years with no problems. the ten dollar aluminium hatches I have used for decades with no problems. The roller furler I built for $80, I have used since 1980 and several pacific crossings with no problems. Some have used it for circumnavigations with no problems.
    The lavac type head I built for under $20 , I used for many years with no problems , the composter head I built for under $50 , I have used for several years now with no problems. The bilge pump I show in my book , which I built for undr $10, I have used for many years now, with no problems. The 31 I built in the summer of 84, and is in the photos, I have crossed the pacific on many times and cruised 11 months a year ,since 85, I have no problems with.
    I use the stuff in my book, which makes me far more qualified to comment on them than those who refuse to try them . Anyone who buys my book will save many times what it costs them. Anyone building or fitting out any kind of boat, made out of any material, would be foolish not to buy a copy. It will save them a fortune on the above mentioned items. I take great pride in helping them avoid paying grossly inflated prices for the above mentioned items in a ship chandlery.
    If I piss of those who are trying to sell such items at grossly inflated prices I take that as a compliment.
    Ditto grossly overpriced boat hulls.

    I managed to post one picture of my boat. Any further attempts to post any pictures have been blocked , so they don't undermine your arguments.

    I guess being chased by you paparazzi is the price off fame.

    Time to go for another swim.
     

  15. wardd
    Joined: Apr 2009
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    wardd Senior Member

    How many origami boats have been built and how many have failed and or sunk?
     
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