Origami steel yacht construction

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by origamiboats, Nov 30, 2001.

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  1. goodwilltoall
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Think building in wood is more affordable, but think that anyone building in steel would find Brent Swain techniques excellent for strength, cost, and time.
    Have only known about Brent for about a year and did order his book.

    As far as I can tell, Brent seems to be a pioneer in origami construction in North America, therefore things that apply to transverse frame construction and thier associated scantling rules can not be applied the same way.

    Origami is more of a monoque form of construction which takes into account shape and captures compression and tension stresses that greatly improve overall strength. Anyone that is familiar with monoque construction knows that transverse frames play a minor role in overall strength and sometimes the goal is to completely eliminate them.

    I see naval architects, boat designers, builders, engineers, and others lambasting Brent, but brent has:
    . designed a reputable boat with good qualities.
    . engineered it to make it strong and affordable.
    . built his own boat.
    . provisioned required supplies.
    . is outhere sailing and proving the design.
    . has others that have used his design with good results.
    He has combined all this in a package which is actual proof of it feasability.

    I do see Brent as unorthdox which causes him to be offensive to some of you, but those qualities also contribute to his ideas of boatbuilding & sailing which have made him succesful.
     
  2. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    Brent may have successfully designed and built some boats, but he certainly didn't 'engineer' them.:)

    Trust me: it isn't his lack of orthodoxy which makes Brent offensive. It's his arrogance based on ignorance, combined with his kamikaze attacks on anyone who dares question anything he says or does. He seems to take the fact that his boats float as some sort of proof that anyone who designs or builds anything else is an utter fool.

    Have you ever read any of his posts online where he mocks people who build boats out of 'dead vegetative material,' instead of steel? You can't get much more dogmatic and obnoxious than that....
     
  3. junk2lee
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    junk2lee Junior Member

    exactly so,Magwas!...at post#42
     
  4. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    No. Apex's comment was unnecessary, true. But the thread fell apart at post #44, when tugboat answered Apex with a complete diatribe:

    That's a rather frenzied, irrational response... particularly coming from someone who wants to build a frameless tugboat.:p

    A simple look at Apex's profile shows a long list of positive, informative threads and posts; certainly more than tugboat has produced.
     
  5. junk2lee
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    junk2lee Junior Member

    yes,Tugboat should not have flamed
    It seemed that Tugboat and Apex had some history elsewhere.I just thought Tugboat was just asking for an opinion and got interrupted....
     
  6. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    I edited out that comment about true believers, because I decided I was being a bit trollish. Apparently you were too quick for me... you caught it anyway.
     
  7. goodwilltoall
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Pound for pound wood is one of the strongest materials know to man, with many good qualities of sound deading, floatation, insulation, bending, affordability, asthetics, etc. Brent is ignorant to attack wood like that. Wood does lack resistance to point loads and fire, but it can be improved upon in those qualities to limit its susceptence. Since this is a metal boat building thread, cant talk to much about wood
     
  8. goodwilltoall
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Whoops, I think is sent my post somewhere else. To requote, wood has excellent qualities in affordability, strength, insulation, floatation, asthetics, etc..., its shortcomings are resistance to point loads and fire.

    Those short comings can be partially remied, Brent should not be so ignorant.

    Wood vs. metal. Wood wins in cost effectiveness. I know Brent will say "how cost effective is it if it hits a reef". Well there are things that can always go wrong, you try to minimize those with preparedness and knowledge, furthermore if wood because of it cost effectiviness can get someone cruising sooner so be it. In situations like hitting a reef you can only ask God to be merciful upon you.
     
  9. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    I just spent a few minutes searching for that quote by Brent about vegetative material. I haven't found it yet; apparently I've screwed up the exact phrase he used. But here's a direct quote from him on the same subject:

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/cape-horn-vessel-32362-7.html#post364946

    Post #99.

    edit: ah, here we go, found the post I was thinking of. I did have the wording wrong. And I couldn't find it searching for 'vegetation,' because he mispelled the word.:)

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/we-love-ferro-cement-but-beware-21436-8.html#post318620

    Post #112

    Also Post #142 from the same thread:

     
  10. junk2lee
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    junk2lee Junior Member

    oops,eh? I'm finding that I have to be TOO quick to keep up .
    Yes...The transverse frame thread has some of the history and I can see more of what's going on-an interesting thread.

    I had a wooden boat when Brent laid the vegetable matter rap on me ,I just laugh.I love woodboats!
     
  11. goodwilltoall
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Troy2000,

    Technically wood is dead vegetation. Keeping it dead and dry keeps it from rotting.

    Now Brent has a point that if you are going to have a thrashing, bashing, crashing contest with steel origamiboat vs. woodenboat, steel origamiboat probably wins everytime. But those are not the the parameters we are limited to designing and building boats.

    Now going back to steel origami boatbuilding, who else other than Brent Swain is a bigger proponent of it? It is a technology not well developed in North America. Who else has more designed floating boats using this technique other than Brent Swain? You have to say he is probably more qualified to speak on this matter than most people. First hand experience designing, engineering (eventhough he's not learned as an engineer, the principles he applies are engineering), building, and sailing counts for more
    than all the degrees you can have.

    Wyand,

    If recalling correctly in post 338, pictures of your Van de Stadt 34 show no tranverse frames, mention is made of cabinets and builtins to add strength but basically its an origamiboat. So what is the reason for the arguement between you and Brent? Having read Brents book, he states that grinding is not necessary other than for asthetics on the inside. Sure he is not upto the same craftsmanship standards as you, but if the welds are shown to be good, no harm will come of it.

    Correct me if wrong, but the Van de Stadt 34 is 4mm steel and the Brent36 is 3/8" which is 9mm. Using basically the same construction method for both boats Brents boat would be heavier requiring bigger sails, engine, etc. but on the other hand would also be more robust.

    Brent is also correct in not posting drawings of the lines of his boats. If that is part of the way he makes a living that would be crazy to post. Most designers follow the same logic.
     
  12. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    There are very few designers who will not post at least basic study plans of their boats, from which you can gather a lot of information about the hull shape--even without detailed lines. Is Brent willing to do that in these forums?

    As a contractor, I was never shy about providing elevations and dimensioned floor plans for any house I designed, even though theoretically that's all the information a professional would need to duplicate it; it sold jobs for me. And anyone who would rip off my design had no intention of paying for it to begin with...so it cost me nothing.
     
  13. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

  14. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member


  15. goodwilltoall
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Troy2000,

    Sometimes people do have a vested interest in keeping thier ideas inaccessible unless they are compensated for it, furthermore if Brent does decide to post lines drawings whats to stop others to say "oh theres not enough deadrise, your buttocklines are to flat, your forefoot is too deep, etc." That would just open up another controversy.

    There is an origamiboat pattern in Brent's book not sure if its accurate. The book is about $20.00, someone can make a pattern of it and cut it in the middle to make a cross section view. Maybe that would help.

    There's been to much name calling, we should get back to the merit's of origamiboats. Brent has many people sailing his designs and there's a yahoo group that discusses them and they appear to be a successful design and they are economical if someone wants a steel boat.

    Brent has his ways which can be disagreeable, but there's knowledge I gained from him to give confidence with plans to build a boat that made me think "hey, this can be done and it dont need to cost a fortune." Some example are HDPE bow rollers, manual winch, galvanized rigging, buying sails,
    and roller reefer to name a few. All which you can build yourself to make it affordable and get out of a ditch with "how can I afford this" and into a boat.

    With all the publicity of boating magazines, high priced marine stores, and glossy plastic boats people have to begin to think outside those confines.
    As a proverb goes " it aint so much what you know, but what you think you know that just aint so"
     
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