Origami steel yacht construction

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by origamiboats, Nov 30, 2001.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
    Posts: 951
    Likes: 35, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -12
    Location: British Columbia

    Brent Swain Member

    I wouldn’t put together a barnyard gate without grinding the torch cut edges but Brent apparently builds entire hulls that way. It’s incredibly bad practice and there’s absolutely no reason for it. Brent, your “cost of labour" excuse doesn't fly because if money was an issue you could have simply had Alex grind the plate edges himself and call you when he was done, it would’ve taken a day; but of course you didn’t and he didn’t know any better. Your “6011 burns through slag” excuse is baloney, yeah it does but the likelihood of slag inclusions is far greater than with clean edges and since below the waterline welds are pretty damn critical what on earth is wrong with doing the safest, soundest job possible? Are you seriously going to argue that spending an extra day grinding is going to “cost someone their cruising dreams”?

    All the plate edges on Alex's hull were ground by him. Alex had hours of editing in the video or it would have gone on for days. The ginding part was editied out. I find it far better to grind the high spots of an edge than to fill the resulting gap.
    While making the video I also took the occasional leak, farted, picked my nose, scratched my ***, etc. That too got edited out. Why ? you ask? Because we didn't know you were interested (Kinky!)
    However ,the temporary lugs used to pul the hull together ,we don't waste time grinding. I let the owner, a first time welder, weld them down. Then, when he tries to break them of with a sledgehammer , they have never yet broken on the weld, lalwaysd about 1/4 inch waay from thr weld. So where is th epointy of grinding a clean cut when it is never the weak point?.
    I once worked on a 40 being built at BCIT. It gave me insight on how fitters are taught to do things.
    They were told that the spacing on longitudinals had to be within 1/32 of an inch. They would come in in the morning ,start putting in one longitudinal and by quiting time in the afternoon they had put in one longitudinal. And some wring their hands about Canadian workers not being productive enough? They are taught that way.

    When you drew the plate shapes it looks like you mostly eyeballed it with with a batten which explains why the edges didn’t match up when you pulled them together to create the half-hulls, and why you had to cut an oblong piece out on each side to get the edges to match up. Assuming your drawings are accurate Alex could have lofted the plate shapes himself and done a perfect job of it but he apparently didn’t know any better and you’re on video telling him it’s totally normal, nothing to worry about. Who knows what that did to the lines of that boat compared to “as designed”, again assuming your drawings are accurate.

    It is considered proper boatbuilding to fair all lines with a batten

    When you joined the half-hulls you apparently didn’t join them at the same relative point at the stem because once the centerline was welded up one half-hull had a noticeable overhang at the stern which you simply cut off. You also had to warp the bow over to one side with a come-a-long to get the stem to match up. In your book you write “If the plate for one side of the hull matches perfectly the plate for the other side of the hull – and they all attach to one another at the same relative points, it’s geometrically impossible for the hull to be anything but symmetrical” Well, by the same principle that hull is permanently warped, for no good reason. How much effort would it have been to take a piece of string and measure down each half-hull at the stem and scribe an accurate mark for joining them?

    We did measure down both side of the hull and match the points up perfectly .If we hadn't, the top points of the stem would never have matched up perfectly, as they did ,unless you are naive enough to believe we compressed 3/16th plate on edge with a comealong., The hull was perfectly symetrical . I'm sure Haidan wouid let you measure it, for a case of beer.

    That brings me to the worst part of this whole thing. Throughout the whole video you can feel Alex’s enthusiasm about getting his boat built and thinking he’s getting a good deal. I feel sorry for him because he seems like a nice guy who deserved a lot better. It’s sad that he’s tied his name to your “work”. You’re constantly going around accusing people of taking advantage of other people’s ignorance to make a buck but it is you who does this very thing constantly! It’s your entire business model! Your economics are provably false. What sound money saving advice you give (building your own deck hardware, used engines, etc.) is hardly exclusive to origami building.
    No one who has buit my boats and sailed them for many years would consider building anyhting else. They have expereince with my boats. You don't . Their opinions are based on expereince and knowledge. Your is based on speculation. I would put far more value in hands on expereince than speculation from someone with zero expereince wih my boats as is the case with all my critics on this and any other site..

    I want to thank you all for discouraging the dull witted, ultra conservative ,gulible , not so bright from considering my boats. It saves me from having to deal with them.
    I can liv ewithout them . There are enough intellignet, more practical people out there to provide all the work I want to do , ( a month a year) which will dwindle as full pension time approaches.
     
  3. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
    Posts: 951
    Likes: 35, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -12
    Location: British Columbia

    Brent Swain Member

    Having worked a month a year , the rest full time playtime, since my mid 20's, why would I envy someone who worked his whole life?
    Sure wish I was in that traffic lineup, instead of laying on this white sand beach?
    Ya right!.
     
  4. larry larisky

    larry larisky Previous Member

    your post has nothing to do with poker and vodka, please stay on topic.
     
  5. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
    Posts: 951
    Likes: 35, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -12
    Location: British Columbia

    Brent Swain Member

     
  6. Brent Swain
    Joined: Mar 2002
    Posts: 951
    Likes: 35, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -12
    Location: British Columbia

    Brent Swain Member

    ********! I suggested that a 60 footer could be done using origami methods with 3/8th plate. I never suggested 3/16th for a 60 footer.
    The only 47, I did back in 87, was 1/4 plate and has survived six days pounding in big swells on a lee shore , in the Balerics.
     
  7. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
    Posts: 1,743
    Likes: 170, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2078
    Location: California

    troy2000 Senior Member

     
  8. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
    Posts: 3,192
    Likes: 206, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2054
    Location: Australia

    MikeJohns Senior Member

    Brent you should stop posting such rubbish

    The photo’s show a boat resting on level sand, the rest is not in the photo it’s in your words alone. As are all these anecdotes so far.

    As for the rest ….well it’s just more spin isn’t it! :

    Mylar: aka BS argument_ mylar “doesn’t count ergo incompetent”.
    Link[http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/me...el-yacht-construction-248-24.html#post384434]


    Whomp: aka BS argument _ boat “falling apart in 4 hours ergo incompetent”.
    Link [http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/me...el-yacht-construction-248-20.html#post383787]

    Why do you dive to such depths of dishonest spin doctoring by continually misquoting posts. Presumably so you can dish it up as later BrentSwain fact.

    All you are ever interested in is taking away some dishonest spin or incorrect implication. You are ignoring the real concerns. You are being grossly and even immorally dishonest.

    Example: Quoting that Wynand or I said “boats will fall apart in 4 hours” or that we oppose frameless hulls.
    That's why I had to come back and address 'whomp', you have a dishonest proclivity at taking something unquantified, quantifying it to suit you, then make up a distorted straw man argument that you win.
    Then you try and use it as a BrentSwain distorted truth.
    The ‘straw man’ has no place in boat design nor in sensible discussion.

    That highlights your whole miasma of your marketing claims. No one can trust anything you say, you are full of misquotes untruths, distortions and spin all now well illustrated . to your eternal shame.

    As Bearflag said it’s almost malfeasant behavior.
     
  9. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
    Posts: 1,743
    Likes: 170, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2078
    Location: California

    troy2000 Senior Member

    What else would you expect from someone who sneers at people who actually work for a living, and makes catty remarks about it proving their lack of 'intelligence'? Con artist mentality to the bone, I'd say.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 1,002
    Likes: 86, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 933
    Location: Hobart

    pdwiley Senior Member

    A lot of us enjoy what we did and getting paid for it was a bonus. Brent has never had the pleasure of designing, building and seeing through to completion any complex project spanning years so naturally he denigrates people with the skills and dedication he doesn't have. Software I designed & wrote 18 years ago is still running in its latest form, a direct descendent of the first version, and I still maintain it (I own the IP). I don't have to do this, I enjoy doing it.

    I'll point out another unfair comparison he's making, too. He only tacks those hulls together, he doesn't finish weld them. So that $17K price for Alex's hull can't at all be compared to Wynand's price for a fully welded and delivered hull.

    We all know there's a lot more welding in the hull after it's tacked together so even at Brent's weld quality & speed, to finish the welding let's say 2X the time to tack it together. If there was $10K in materials that's $7K in labour to get a tacked together hull. We need to add another $14K to the price to compare apples with apples.

    Funny thing is Brent says it takes him less than 100 hours to tack a hull together. Those figures simply don't add up with $40/hour labour charges.

    PDW
     
  11. welder/fitter
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 407
    Likes: 32, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 423
    Location: Vancouver

    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Point of information:
    When I viewed this boat in May of 2007, it had been sitting for a couple of years. There was no "detailing" done, if this phrase refers to hatches, railings(tacked on, not welded), dressed flame-cut edges, all welds completed, etc., it wasn't even primered. When I met with Brent for coffee, the following day(? - I'd have to check my wife's videos to be sure which day), he dumped the blame on Alex, commenting that Alex seemed more preoccupied with making videos & travelling to South America, than finishing his boat. Fair comment, though I was under the impression that this was a joint project.

    Now, we hear that, despite working for about one month per year since his early twenties, Brent was considered the best detail fabricator some boss had ever seen. I haven't seen any example of Brent's workmanship that would support such a tale, quite the opposite. One thing that a fabricator is required to do in B.C. is to go to a recognized trades school & learn to weld, fit, etc., and upgrade those skills, periodically.

    How much does it cost to build one of Brent's books? Here is a discussion that took place, recently, on another forum:

    Cruisers & Sailing Forum - Steel Boats and Welding - Post#92
    Haiden, lets just add this up a bit as an exercise:

    10k for base steel
    4k for stainless trim (extra 1k)
    5k for paint and sprayfoam
    10k for engine
    5k for interior (less labour?)
    24k rigging etc

    58k - gross cost for boat
    69k - add in 20% buffer

    Then labour, which is a question mark

    Sails etc don't count since most used boats would have to be outfitted the same way.

    Almost doable...

    Post #100
    OK, let's revise costs a bit:

    10k for base steel
    4k for stainless trim (extra 1k)
    5k for paint and sprayfoam
    10k for engine
    5k for interior (less labour?)
    10k cheapo mast, rigging etc

    44k - gross cost for boat
    53k - add in 20% buffer

    plus additional labour.

    How's that?


    Post #102, after Brent's "corrections"

    Ok, hmmmm...let me revise

    10k for base steel
    2k for stainless trim (cut 50%)
    2.5k for paint and sprayfoam (cut 50%)
    1.5k for engine (used)
    100 for interior (less labour? stove?, pipeberths?)
    2k cheapo mast, rigging etc

    18,100 - gross cost for boat
    21,720- add in 20% buffer

    plus labour....ok how reasonable is that?

    I have a sudden urge to weld something...

    (ps: haidan thanks for the welding details. its a good record on this site for others)


    It is not cheap to build any decent 36' sailboat; can we all agree on this? Whether one pays Brent $350 for his drawings(36'), or Van de Stadt Design $2,000 for theirs(34), or Ted Brewer $1000 for his(36'-38'), does it make a significant difference? Is the extra (approx) $1,650/$650 for the Van de Stadt/Brewer design worth the peace of mind of knowing that an experienced designer has produced the design? Pretty cheap insurance, imho. If one really wants to save money on construction plans for a 30-something sailboat, there are free plans on the internet. Still, if you buy from a professional designer - who is not deceased/retired - you can call him/her up & they will be able to answer your questions, correctly. Finally, after only working a month each year since his early twenties, Brent will soon have Canadian taxpayers support him(pension). Man, that's some lack of integrity, from where I stand.
     
  12. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 1,002
    Likes: 86, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 933
    Location: Hobart

    pdwiley Senior Member

    I paid Tom Colvin $600 USD for my Witch plans in 2003 IIRC. For that I also got updated scantlings, new rig plans for the stretched length and he answers my questions when I need to know something. His drawings make Brent's look like kiddy sketches. I'm going to frame some of the rigging plans - I have plans for a ketch, schooner and junk schooner plus there's a cutter rig plan as well.

    PDW
     
  13. magwas
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 282
    Likes: 7, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 47
    Location: Hungary

    magwas Senior Member

    Okay. Would you mind to ask for structural analysis of that 60 footer with 3/8th plate?
    It have been offered to you for free.

    If the structural analysis would lead to a conclusion that the boat is inadequate you will still have the opportunity to strengthen it somehow or say that structural analysis is worthless.
     
  14. peter radclyffe
    Joined: Mar 2009
    Posts: 1,408
    Likes: 60, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 680
    Location: europe

    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    B S quote

    we don't waste time grinding.
     

  15. peter radclyffe
    Joined: Mar 2009
    Posts: 1,408
    Likes: 60, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 680
    Location: europe

    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    quote by Brent Swain


    Anyone I've worked for can tell you I always refuse to do the final welding. Lesser intelligence people can be hired for less than I ,especially if it is a cash job.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.