Origami steel yacht construction

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by origamiboats, Nov 30, 2001.

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  1. bearflag
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    bearflag Inventor/Fabricator

    This is why I said in the "other" thread that Brent really isn't refuting the handful(s) of boats built by the people on this forum, but practically every boat built that is currently floating and meets Class specifications.

    Again, I think it is alright to be a rebel, maverick, buck the system. But when you do, the onus is on you. It is up to you to meet and exceed what is considered the orthodoxy.

    Brent has not stepped up to the plate, nor has he struck out anyone who has.

    I refer people to Stumble's post http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/new-ideas-new-materials-33453.html
     
  2. welder/fitter
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Brent,
    if I wanted to be vindictive, I'd just call up my old colleagues in Transport Canada/Can. Coast Guard & suggest that they take a close look at your boats & "design". It is you who focuses on the messenger, rather than the message.:p
    Mike
     
  3. welder/fitter
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    Originally Posted by Brent Swain:
    I clearly remember you trying to badmouth Alex's boat, saying it was worth less than scrap value, then trying to buy it from him for scrap price. You only started to badmouth origami when Alex told you where to go.Those posts are still there.

    By all means, Brent, repost my comments here! I believe that they were: #13520, #13533, #13537, and #13644
    Did I ask Alex to sell me his boat? LMAO! Please, show us all where this post is.

    Originally posted by Brent:
    You are right, I never designed this boat. Jack did. I'd never design such a boat with less than 3/8th plate . I would put a heavy piece of plate around the mast, with additional stiffeners beneath it. Unlike Bermuda rigs, the only compression on a junk rig is the weight , far less than the tensile strength of hull plate.
    Its not my Paul 60. Again you lie!


    This was another false post by you, Brent. It was obvious that, at first, Some were under the misconception that you designed Paul's boat. After I rectified this misunderstanding, like the coward you are, you continued to play off of this, as you are doing here, rather than to simply correct the misunderstanding, calling people liars. I can understand how one would think that it was your design, as you had made a previous post on that thread, transverse frames calculations, wherein you said that one could build to 60' with your design, or some similar nonsense.

    Aside, while we're on the subject of a 60 foot Swain, How in hell do you expect to pull a hull of that magnitude (3/8" thick plate, as you, now, say) together? What are the chances of the centreline tacks holding if you did?

    Help me to understand how I envy you, Brent. It couldn't be your lifestyle because I lived aboard my Cal for 3 years and that was enough in our climate. If you have been offshore it hasn't been for several years, and there are many, most in fact, offshore sailors with better characters to envy. You can't weld or fit very well, so I don't envy you for that. Finally, there is nothing to envy about your design. As one whom is on the lowest rungs of learning to be a designer, I look to those many professional designers whom do truly beautiful work for inspiration, yet, do not envy them, as I could only truly envy that which I could never achieve myself, and I'm a long way from throwing in the towel on becoming a designer. Instead, I appreciate them. Should I envy you for the boats you've built? If I were to envy anyone for building a lot of beautiful boats, it'd have to be Wynand. The examples that Stu sent me of his builds were impressive, as well. Heck, there's lots of nice boats out there, but volume-wise? Wynand. But, I'm sure that there are others out there whom have built many nice boats, I just may not know, or be remembering, them.

    Overall, your conviction that others envy you and that "they"(we?) are out to get you/rip you off, are delusions of grandeur & flights of fantasy. Those long hours of solo-sailing must have fried your brain.
     
  4. Brent Swain
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    Brent Swain Member

    like the coward you are,
    I built a boxing ring at Steves place. You claim to have some martial arts training in Kung Fu. Drop by and prove me a coward, or don't and prove yourself one

    Aside, while we're on the subject of a 60 foot Swain, How in hell do you expect to pull a hull of that magnitude (3/8" thick plate, as you, now, say) together? What are the chances of the centreline tacks holding if you did?

    We used to weld short pieces of plate across the seams after pulling the hull together. For smaller boats, 4 inch tacks on the outside proved adequate. The odd one breaks after the pull up, but with both sides being equal length , grinding them out and re-welding em is no problem. One 1/4 inch 57 footer was built on Cortes Island. No problem, with chain hoists instead of comealongs. 3/8th would be no problem with bigger chain hoists . I'm sure you use some huge ones in shipyards.

    Help me to understand how I envy you, Brent. It couldn't be your lifestyle because I lived aboard my Cal for 3 years and that was enough in our climate. If you have been offshore it hasn't been for several years, and there are many, most in fact, offshore sailors with better characters to envy. You can't weld or fit very well, so I don't envy you for that. Finally, there is nothing to envy about your design. As one whom is on the lowest rungs of learning to be a designer, I look to those many professional designers whom do truly beautiful work for inspiration, yet, do not envy them, as I could only truly envy that which I could never achieve myself, and I'm a long way from throwing in the towel on becoming a designer. Instead, I appreciate them. Should I envy you for the boats you've built? If I were to envy anyone for building a lot of beautiful boats, it'd have to be Wynand. The examples that Stu sent me of his builds were impressive, as well. Heck, there's lots of nice boats out there, but volume-wise? Wynand. But, I'm sure that there are others out there whom have built many nice boats, I just may not know, or be remembering, them.

    I sure don't envy anyone who lives in a Cal in the BC climate.Did that on my first boat ,a cement boat with a wooden deck. No thanks. 1 1/2 inches of sprayfoam , an airtight , controlable woodstove in a steel hull for me. Doing something totally wrong doesn't mean it can't work, even if you get it right.
    So have you started your "perfect " boat yet ? The guys you met in Royston all said you are strictly a talker . That was years ago, and you are still talking. Not everyone want to spend their lives talking. Some actually want to go cruising, and not take forever to get there.
    I don' t have to build volumes of boats. I've made money far more irrelevant in my lifestyle, which is why I have been able to sleep in as long as I wish, since my mid 20's and listen to the traffic report on you guys going to work , after having been rudely awakened by an alarm clock. That make some envious. Don't envy, emulate.
    Envy from others is an affirmation that you have got something right.

    Daniel has taken his argument to other sites, where people have actual extensive experience in building origami boats, crossing oceans and T boning rocks at hull speed, with impunity. When he told them their boats were not strong enough ,he got laughed off the stage.
    This proves my point, that the main critics of origami boats are those with zero experience in them.
    So what is the contact info for that guy who wanted a demolition derby with an origami junk? Chickened out when called on it, as all of the critics do. They don't believe their own ********.
     
  5. Brent Swain
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    Brent Swain Member

    What they are saying is common sense and logic have no place in yacht design, as that tends to undermine their beliefs.
     
  6. Brent Swain
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    Brent Swain Member

    I noticed that the transverse frame discussion has been deleted entirely, including the demolition derby challenge, and all relevant info on it.
    Censorship of ideas which contradict one's own beliefs is one way to win an argument.
     
  7. Jeff
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    Jeff Moderator

    The Transverse Frame thread has not been deleted:
    Link: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/classification/transverse-frame-calculation-32584.html
    It was closed because it appeared the discussion there was stuck in a rut and no longer generating productive replies, but no interesting posts were deleted.
     
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  8. bearflag
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    bearflag Inventor/Fabricator

  9. welder/fitter
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    I read your posts, Brent, but I will respond without reprinting all.

    A fight? Hmmm. At first, I thought, "no". At our ages it seemed a ridiculous thought & does not lead to any solution on discussions of your boat design. I'm not sure what you meant by the "your perfect(?) boat" (replace perfect with whatever other word it may have been) deal. As you ask, I was supposed to be in Asia by last January, but a series of issues have delayed me until, hopefully, January 2011. One of these issues, unfortunately, must be used as an excuse for not taking up your challenge, as I had surgery on my left shoulder, including a failed bicep tenodesis, and have more surgery to go on the right shoulder &, possibly, both forearms, hence the reason I am studying for design and have had to stop working in the drydocks/shipyards. Yes, I can attach lots of proof if you wish(specialists reports, etc.). I did know all about Steve's barn & was awaiting such an offer at one time, though if challenged, I would pick the arena, not you. This is no measure of bravery or cowardice, Brent, and would be of no value, unless your agreement to have an engineer address your design inadequacies was the prize. As it stands, Any future fight that I am in will not be of my choosing, will be a no-holds-barred streetfight, and will probably end with me or the other incapacitated. Too bad, though, because I'm probably stupid enough to risk a beating in consideration of such a prize, though it'd be to my parameters, not yours.

    I'm sure that living aboard your boat is more comfortable than on my old Cal, but what I was saying is I don't envy you for it. Icy, snow-covered decks & docks, that squamish wind shooting down the sound in November - remember, I was at Sewell's in Horseshoe Bay - was an interesting experiment, but was not without a lot of inconveniences. You said that I was envious of you, but never explained why.

    Your comment on Daniel at Cruisers and Sailing Forums http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/origami-metal-boat-construction-846.html
    is another example of you twisting the truth. He wasn't "laughed off stage" by experienced offshore sailors whom have built your boats. You should be more honest about this sort of thing, as it always comes back to bite you in the ***. As well, getting personal detracts from every thread of discussion on your boats and while I and others often respond to those red-herrings, it simply detracts from the discussion. unfortunately, your designs seem very much more personal theories, philosophies and speculation, rather than hard numbers, so there is an ingrained personality within your designs, which is not easy to avoid in the discussion of them, just as the design and construction aspects are so intertwined.

    If I remember, correctly, 3/8" plate is at the upper limit of cold forming(marine), with exceptions such as barge hulls. Bending 3/8" plate to that degree(a 60 foot Swain) would not be an undertaking for a one-off, "backyard" builder, which is your target audience, according to your own statements.

    Why you bait a man with a "loaded gun" is beyond me, as, if a picture speaks 10,000 words, how much do videos say?

    Mike
     
  10. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    So, we can now close the circle.

    Exactly, not rocket science.

    And Brent’s reply to the ‘obviously can defend’ simple question is…????

    The engineeering acumen of Brent and his method of design and structural knowledge is just words, and words with no meaning nor understanding of said words thrown about like mud, hoping some will stick somewhere.

    Do you understand now?
     
  11. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    Disinformation and dishonesty.

    You have yet to respond to one common sense question intelligently honestly and with integrity. After all your posts on this forum can you point to just one where you actually got something demonstrably correct. Your engineering acumen is in tatters and whats left of your integrity is following close behind.

    The distortion of the Cruisers Forum of Daniels effort is typical; you said he was laughed off!
    In fact the moderator appears to be a friend of yours and closed the thread to protect you.
    You didn't even have the integrity to admit that they were your current plans, you were happy to let it appear that they were somebody else’s amateurish sketch. Don't you think that's ironic ?

    You think disinformation and dishonesty and even offers of violence are supposed to counter your ignorance?

    I wish you'd be sensible and actually discuss your design faults properly. It appears some of them have quietly slid away as you've stopped using them so perhaps we are slowly getting through.
    The problem is that having had all your engineering presumptions rubbished, rather than re-address the design in critical areas you are driving the discussion continually back into this swamp of deception.

    You should try and find some empathy with the people who actually end up with your shoddy design work, and lift your game. Several of us have offered to help you for free. Your response has been pathetic.
     
  12. Brent Swain
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    Brent Swain Member

    I learned long ago to stay out of Howe Sound and other mainland inlets in winter.
    Cal is short for California, a boat made for a California climate, unlike brentboats. We Northern cruisers have been freezing our asses off for too long, letting those in warm climates set design parameters , like outside only steering.
     
  13. Brent Swain
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    Brent Swain Member

    I'm sure that living aboard your boat is more comfortable than on my old Cal, but what I was saying is I don't envy you for it. Icy, snow-covered decks & docks, that squamish wind shooting down the sound in November - remember, I was at Sewell's in Horseshoe Bay - was an interesting experiment, but was not without a lot of inconveniences. You said that I was envious of you, but never explained why.

    I learned years ago to stay out of Howe Sound and other mainland inlets in winter. Now the closest I come in winter is Sechelt.
    Cal is short for California , which has the climate the boat was deigned for.
    We northern cruisers have for to long, let those in warmer climes dictate the paramaters for our northern boats , like outside only steering stations, etc. With proper insulation, and inside steering , my boat is light years more comfortable than you cal.
    Right now I could sail anywhere I wanted to. I am where I want to be, BC
    The last time I left Tonga, a Porugese friend there said"You are leaving paradise?" I said " No, I'm leaving Tonga, I'm going to Paradise."

    Your comment on Daniel at Cruisers and Sailing Forums http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/origami-metal-boat-construction-846.html
    is another example of you twisting the truth. He wasn't "laughed off stage" by experienced offshore sailors whom have built your boats.

    Your damned right he was, as he was on the origamiboats forum.

    When I gave you hard number on the keel web, it was ignored, as it didn't fit your pre conceived conclusions.

    If I remember, correctly, 3/8" plate is at the upper limit of cold forming(marine), with exceptions such as barge hulls. Bending 3/8" plate to that degree(a 60 foot Swain) would not be an undertaking for a one-off, "backyard" builder, which is your target audience, according to your own statements.

    I don't encourage anyone to build beyond 40 feet for cruising, as I don't see any useful function for such a huge boat.In fact I encourage others to go for the 36, even tho I make less money for a set of 36 plans. I just said it could be done, and would be a far better option than traditional building methods , if one were foolish enough to build a boat that big.
    I have no interest in being in the white elephant business, and I take some pride in helping people escape to the cruising life quickly and easily.
    That is why I don't have any interest in designing anything over 40 feet. It reminds me of a German friend who knew a guy doing a circumnavigation in a 28 footer. People would look at his boat and say"Your boat's too small." He would look back and say "No , your ego's too big."

    Why you bait a man with a "loaded gun" is beyond me,

    No, you baited me, by calling me a coward. I was just offering you the chance to prove your point , unaware of your shoulder problems.
    My shoulder has been torn for the last two years.Now it feels great. No surgery, just time

    if a picture speaks 10,000 words, how much do videos say?
    Alex's video says a lot.
     
  14. Brent Swain
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    Brent Swain Member

     

  15. Brent Swain
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    Brent Swain Member

    Transverse frame calculations nowhere to be found in the list of titles. The entire discussion has been deleted. The demoltion derby challenge is nowhere to be found . No one will give any contact info on the subject.
    They chickened out!
     
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