On to Paint!

Discussion in 'Materials' started by CatBuilder, May 11, 2012.

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  1. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    After an entire day studying paint systems, the comments here are much more understandable to me. Thanks for the advice.
     
  2. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    I am waiting for your unbiased opinion with baited breath...
     
  3. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Baited breath and a treble hook nose ring. . .
     
  4. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    So far, the conclusion is to fair with my employee(s), then roll and tip a high build and re-fair that.

    From there, I need to find out if it is possible to roll and tip the paint effects into a clear coat. If that is possible, we may roll and tip the whole thing. If not, I will contract out the spray job.

    Another factor will be the cost of contracting out just the final spray vs paying for the extra labor for a roll and tip. (also paint and consumables with both).

    Somewhere, I read Sterling is $300/gal! More than Awlgrip.

    The question also is if i can use effects by mixing them with a paint like sterling, which doesn't use a clear coat.

    Less labor will save money either way, so the less steps the better.
     
  5. Steve W
    Joined: Jul 2004
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    Steve W Senior Member

    Contracting out the final spray only should be reasonably cost effective if you can find a car painter who is unemployed or willing to do it as a side job. A large part a quality paint job is the prep work leading up to the final spray and this is where the bulk of the man hours go,you can do as good here as a pro as long as you dont rush it. Ive seen many an amature job spoiled by impatience.

    Steve.
     
  6. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    Oh, I'm definitely an impatient guy when it comes to fairing. :) That's why from the beginning, I budgeted labor for that part of the project.


    The really sick part is I'm trying to go fast and busting my @ss so I can hurry up and start working again. (remember, I'm a charter captain by trade). So it sure is a lot of work just so i can work. :)
     
  7. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    The difference between a yacht finish and a boat finish is how many times you paint and sand... A boat three costs, a yacht till it is perfect. Sometimes I will go through 5 different colors/layers before I even ready for a final primer.
     
  8. mastcolin
    Joined: Jun 2005
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    mastcolin Senior Member

    Spray the primer (high build/545) if I was you.

    If you brush/roll you only get thin coat per layer. You want a reasonable thickness...without brushmarks. Awlgrip HighBuild does not roll good even with much thinning so you need loads of coats. 545 rolls ok but still needs plenty of coats especially if you are thinking of board sanding it.

    Spraying wet on wet (ie within specification) will give you a flatter finish so less sanding, and a thicker film build. eg you can apply 200micron dry of 545 in a day, Highbuild 300micron (i think.Check the datasheet). If you roll, you will get max about 25micron a coat with 545 (it is designed to spray. It is like water but you have to thin with T006 to get it to flow out reasonable)

    The effects are NOT applicable by roller/brush. Well they are but they will look like crap.

    The effects you are going to use will not ever be repairable if you want to do spot repair. You are adding a powder to your paint it seems. Great. When you want to do a repair after a year say, you will have to add the exact amount and same batch to the exact same batch and amount of paint. And i imagine the time you stir paint will have effect as well. It ain't reproducible. Good luck to you. These products are difficult to repair from the the suppliers like PPG and they have minimised batch to batch variation

    Yes spraying is dangerous. You will need a respirator (and appropriate filters). Epoxies are as nasty as PU.

    Time wise? Spraying is quicker to get equivalent film thickness. You wil get max 30micron per coat if you brush...if you are good. To meet specification you will need at least 3 coats. You can try to get away with 2 but if the dft is on low side the paint will fail quicker (it is like putting on sun tan protection but only putting on a micro layer - you will burn quicker).

    Spraying topcoat will give you the spec ie 50-75micron in one spray session. 1hour a coat. 4 hours total to spray (you apply 3 coats wet on "tacky". Go for a smoke and coffee between coats). Masking off is of course much more work if you spray than roll/brush.

    If brush was quicker all the builders would brush. Almost no-one does. Money talks. And spraying gives you a better film build which gives longer life.

    When you wanting to spray? I am holiday in july for 3 weeks if you pay my airfare:)
     
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  9. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    Oh no! It is unfortunately, but I will not be ready in July. Also, it would be physically impossible to wear a suit where I am in July anyway, because it is 40C at times with very high humidity ranging from 70% in the afternoon to 98% in the morning.

    The spray job will likely be in the fall, but I am most definitely, 100% looking for quotes on this to subcontract it out.

    Aside from health risks (because I already have some respiratory damage), it will go much faster if I contract it out to be sprayed.

    I understand the downside of the pearls/effects, but it's ok. It's a very subtle effect I'm going for anyway. If it isn't a perfect repair, it will not be noticed. Later, when styles change and the paint is tired, we will repaint to whatever the style is at that new time. This is a business, so I need to keep up with the trends.

    Thanks again for posting, Colin. When I read your posts, I had been a little lost, until I read a lot more about the paints. Now, I am understanding what you are saying and it all agrees with everything I've read.

    I'm glad to understand the actual film thickness achievable with a gun vs roll and tip. That is a huge help to understand which will take more time and, therefore, cost more to do. There is some paint loss spraying, but the shortened time seems like it will save more money when you count rent and such.

    Thanks again.
     
  10. idkfa
    Joined: Sep 2005
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    idkfa Senior Member

  11. Saildude
    Joined: Jun 2011
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    Saildude Junior Member

    A positive displacement suit would keep the fumes at bay - I have had to use them a few times - the temperature that catbuilder is talking about would have me a bit concerned from a not get over heated and get heat stroke -
     
  12. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

  13. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    I do it the other way around. Negative pressure for painting. I close up area, get a couple large fan, and I mean large like 4' diameter. I used them in reverse to suck all air, dust, heat out of paint booth environment. I leave open an area on the bottom in back of boat. If heat is an issue, I throw a cloth blanket over top enclosure and water it. You spray one coat early in morning, and then another in late afternoon. When sanding I water boat and/or ground to cool area. Amazing part in S Fl sun in Summer water therefore Air Conditioning is gone in under 10 minutes.
     
  14. idkfa
    Joined: Sep 2005
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    idkfa Senior Member

    Seems to me a large part of getting a good finish is curing, out-gassing/baking, of the paint. See step eight - sailOvation, cars are baked too.

    Epoxy paints are 100% solids, go on thick but are not UV-resistant.

    How about using an epoxy, buffing it down, removing flaws in application getting a perfect surface, then painting with Alexseal clear coat, for UV protection and the wet-look?

    Best of both worlds? non-volatiles paint, airless/air-assist sprayer possible, very forgiving application process. "Easy" PU-clear coat application. Downside is all the buffing of the epoxy.

    Just a thought?
     

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  15. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    I use a waterbased epoxy paint for commercial boats, it gets chalky if left in sunlight. We usually just cover it with a one-part poly for uv protection.

    I haved worked with UV protect epoxies before and they just take a little longer to fail. The darker the epoxy the better uv doesn't get thru. Unfortunately it also gets very hot.

    Had to paint a black ship deck, my shoes would melt on deck. had to wrap shoes in newspaper.

    A very important step to getting good finish is making sure epoxy, resin, paint is fully cured before you lay another coat on it. Otherwise you get crackel bubbles from out gasing. I now leave a week in between epoxy work and painting if I can.
     
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