Old Quarter Tonners -Magic Bus

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by steveo-nz, Oct 5, 2008.

  1. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    That's pretty cool. Where did you find that? Do you have the same sort of clippings or results from the '79 and '80 NAs?
  2. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Looks like you have a good listing of Mini Ton results. I have been trying to put together a comprehensive list of all the Ton Cup winners. I have most of the QT, HT, 3/4T, 1T, and 2T results. I should add the Mini Tonners as well.

    If you can provide any results in the following format I can add to the database:

    Year, Designer, Boat Name, Regatta Location, Crew, Comments (such as X boat was fastest, but broke their rig in last race so didn't win, etc).

    Thank you.
  3. dan catalyst
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    dan catalyst Junior Member

    no, thats all i have right now.ill ask the person who posted it on the lindenberg 22 yahoo group if they have any of the others. i know that 'great white' was sailed with a all female crew in 78', that Whitey Meyers must have been quite the ladies man.im proud to continue the legacy of 'great white's giggalo skippers,lol.
  4. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Thanks for looking.

    That article kind of confused me, but now I think I get it. The article is not about the MT NAs, but about the "first" MT regatta in the USA in 1978.

    I was confused because the info I have shows an L22 called Sauerkraut winning the NAs in Dallas in 1978 (not the Kirby Heatwave). I thought the article was about the NAs. A second reading clarified things.

    The owner of Sauerkraut had Kelley design Mr. Bills Dog. He won the NAs in '79 in Marina del Rey, the '80 NAs in Annapolis, and the '80 Worlds in Scotland.

    As far as I know, the '78 NAs were the first and I don't know if there were any held after '80. Only 5 boats showed up for the "80 championship.
  5. Richard 4073
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    Richard 4073 Junior Member

    Hi Paul, if you have any gaps in your database for the 1970s let me know, I have got a few regatta results sheets on hand from my book research.

    You probably already have this link - http://www.scribd.com/doc/36312151/null, but just in case....

    The Mini tonners would have been a fun class, they never really took off here in NZ, though there were a couple of attempts at production trailer sailer versions (one of which is a truly awful design).
  6. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I didn't have that link, but I have something better. That is my spreadsheet someone has posted. Of course it is not as up to date as mine currently is. I have another one for the NAs that isn't as complete.

    If you have regatta results sheets please post them. It would be interesting to see.

    Mini Tonners didn't really take off here in SoCal either. We had the NAs in MdR in '80, but that might have been the only mini ton regatta here ever.

    I did sail on a Ranger 22 a few times (Mull pintail Mini Ton), and worked for the dealer for the Santana 20s. I don't think the 20s could measure in as mini tonners without doing some work.
  7. salkbj
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    salkbj Junior Member

    Kelly got the chance to design a 1/2-tonner in 1981, "Don Quixote IV", run by the Bagnell brothers under Greek flag. She won the UK HT nationals but didn't meet expectations in the HTC-81 or HTC-82. To my knowledge(memory), she was the first honeycomb tonner!?
    1982 "Ella-M" was designed, slightly lighter, in an attempt to overcome Don Q:s weakness in heavy weather.

    All my European sources refer to Bruce Kelly, not Kelley?

    Mini Ton Cup listing as requested:
    1976, Phélipon, L’Effraie, La Rochelle(FRA), Patrick Phélipon/, "mini ton cup" cat-rigged all bullets!
    1976, van de Stadt, Oceaan 2, Lymington(GBR),Cees van Tongeren/, "1/8 ton cup" 9th in MTC-76
    1977, Berret, Jaunac, La Rochelle(FRA), Eric Ancelle/A Lathioor/M Margoux
    1978, F/M/N, Wahoo, Cala Galera(ITA), Hubert Raudaschl/Nevuscheller/Prokes, first ORC-sanctioned Mini Ton Cup
    1979, F/M/N, Wahoo, Estartit(ESP), Titziano Nava/Claudio Maletto/Musetti
    1980, Kelly, Mr. Bill’s Dog, Edinborough(GBR), Mike Braney/
    1981, F/M/N, Gullisara, Langen Hagen-Bodensee(GER), Titziano Nava/
    1982, F/M/N, Gullisara, Marstrand(SWE), Titziano Nava/Carlo Parodi/Stefano Parodi
    1983, Nissen, Kninispri, Saint Raphaël(FRA),
    1984, F/M/N, Ligulè, Korfu(GRE), Fabrizio Baudo/
    1985, F/M/N, Creola, Hankø(NOR), Marco Pomi/Erminio Bianchi Bazzi/Paolo Brasca
    1986, Amble, Witchie, Gargnano-Lago di Garda(ITA), Christen With/Erik Otterstad/Audun Goksøyr
    1987, F/M/N, Mannaggia, Medemblik(NED), Titziano Nava/Rolf Schlaefer/Giovanni Cugini
    1988, Amble, For Sale, Varberg(SWE), Knut Berg-Jacobsen/Espen Guttormsen/Olaf Lofstad
    1989, F/M/N, Ligulè Hi-Tech, Cascais(POR), Flavio Favini/Fabrizio Baudo/, first(86) all-out carb/nomex MT
    1990, F/M/N, G.G.G., Åsgårdsstrand(NOR), Enrico Passoni/Alessandro Gaoso/Pierpaolo Bonetti/Alessandra Gaoso, the ultimate carb/nomex/titanium MT
    1991, Thessaloniki(GRE), no races
    1992, F/M/N, G.G.G., Chioggia(ITA), Giovanni Cassinari/Alessandro Gaoso/Stefano Garré/Alessandra Gaoso

    1976-77 there was a debate between GBR/FRA on whether to apply further constraints to the IOR-rule. Mainly width and CGF.
    From 1978 a limit on Bmax of 2500mm was imposed (European trailer width limit).

    Mini-tonners became mostly an Italian affair with another stronghold in Norway and odd boats from other countries.
  8. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I believe you are correct. The construction detail was written up in a major magazine here in the USA. I also recall it wasn't very fast.

    He also did a Two Tonner (Chloe) for the SORC around 1980? It was very short for a Two Tonner at 38 feet and didn't do very well.

    Kelley is what I have always seen here in the USA. He did some successful MORC boats and production boats here in addition to his IOR work.

    Thank you. I will add this to my spreadsheet.

    Are you saying all Mini Ton regattas after '77 were sailed using the measurement rule from '77?
  9. salkbj
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    salkbj Junior Member

    During 76-77 the french added some simplifications to the IOR-rule specific to the minitonners.
    The British didn't agree and in parallel promoted new minimum raters calling them 1/8 Tonners with a rating limit at 16.3'. Eventually they came to an agreement for the 78 season, retaining the dreaded inclination measurements but adding a Bmax limit specific to the minitonners. Other than that the IOR amendments throughout the years applied to the minis as for all other IOR boats.
    The big 1979 revision lifted the rating limit from 16' to 16.5'.

    It was a pain to get inclination and floatation measurements right for these small boats. Often they used water-filled open top containers at the major regattas into which they lifted the boats for measurement.
    More than one boat where caught moving anchor-chain around the boat.
  10. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I imagne getting the floatation and inclining done on such small boats would be difficult. Any wind at all would put enough load on the rig to make dramatic changes to the inclining, so HUGE changes to the rating.

    With such a dominance in the class by FMN I wonder why we didin't hear more from them in other sizes of IOR?
  11. salkbj
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    salkbj Junior Member

    Fontana/Maletto/Navone really had a stranglehold on the Minis, but was actually one of the most productive IOR design teams throughout the 80's.
    Only the Italians poured some serious money into the minitonners.
    Claudio Maletto also designed "Azzurra", the Italian R12m.
    There are a LOT of FMN 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4-tonners. Also 1-tonners(37.5) and AC mid-raters.
    To give you a few examples:
    -"Buonalena" came second at the OTC-80 from a fleet of 27.
    -"Botta Dritta III" won the 3/4 Ton Cup-83.
    -Famous 3/4-tonners "Naj Oleari" and "Bribon VII", always overshadowed by one or the other Jeppesen X-3/4 and later Farr's "Lone".
    -"Son of a Gun", 1/4-tonner second at the QTC-79 with Paul Elvstrøm at the helm.
    -"Willy Willy", still 4th at the QTC-81 despite disintegrating(dnf) in the Mistral-ridden long offshore race.

    They did not "sell" many boats outside Italy, so the US/SoCal-press maybe didn't take notice!?
  12. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I think most design studios would not have been too interested in doing a Mini Tonner design if there was other business to pursue. I think the fee would have been quite low, for the same work it would take to do a One Tonner or larger boat (with larger fee).

    I did know about Son of a Gun. I had Botta Dritta on my 3/4 Ton list, but did not know the designer(s). I think I got the name from a sailmaker ad at the end of the year, listing all their winners.

    It seems most US publications lost interest in the Ton Cups after about 1979, until the 1T was moved to 30.55. Then that class was interesting because it was a must for Admirals Cup and other similar regattas.

    I have spent quite a bit of time in the Nothern part of Italy, especially the Lakes Region. It was interesting to see all the QTs and (probably) MTs sitting in the yards and on moorings. We never had that sort of interest here.
  13. salkbj
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    salkbj Junior Member

    It all became an European affair with Northern/Atlantic Europe loosing wider interest in the mid 80's (except 1-tonners and some local pockets for the smaller classes, 1/2-ton in FRA, driven by the use in the Figaro solo racing, 3/4-ton in DEN and GER, driven by X-Yachts and Dehler, minis in NOR) while the Mediterranean's kept it at the highest level in all classes until the end in the early 90's.

    By the way, you don't happen to have a comprehensive (US) report from the 1988 OTC in San Fransisco (I reach only ca 50% from the EU press)?
  14. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I see no mention of the regatta in either SAIL or Yacht Racing/Cruising. Here is the article from Yachting (Dec. 1988).

    Attached Files:

  15. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Paul and co, a small selection of stuff relating to your interests. If you want more ... I have plenty in the back shed.

    Attached Files:

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