OK Farriers ....

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by El_Guero, Oct 28, 2013.

  1. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    OK, I tried to ask the simple question in a different thread, and I was politely reminded I should start a new thread.

    Imagine that? Politeness when discussing boats. Maybe our down under friends will influence the rest of us?

    :rolleyes:

    Does the Farrier folding system offer that much advantage over other folding systems? Over demountable systems? Over just mooring at a berth?

    I have an idea for a system - not near as light as the Farriers. But, it is for me, and what I would want.

    But, I would learn from others and their ideas?

    I do love Richard Woods' folders - with one caveat. I would love to be able to fold and stay moored. One thing I think the Farrier is weak in as well.

    Are the Farriers reasonably balanced when moored and folded?

    wayne
     
  2. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    Corley wrote this as I was asking this here in his thread ....

    Great to know.
     
  3. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 3,757
    Likes: 182, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 826
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated

    If you were in a protected spot like a marina you could leave a farrier folded with confidence it wouldn't capsize you have to antifoul the sides of the floats though because otherwise they will get marine growth. I'd be a bit concerned leaving one on an exposed swing or double ended mooring folded. Some owners put their farrier on one of those lifting air berths in the marina which is a pretty neat solution and you don't have to antifoul.

    I think the dragonfly swing wing system is better for marina use as the floats retain a similar waterline when folded you do pay for the extra marina berth length though. Another option could be Kurt Hughes sliding beams with waterstay on Kurt's system as you push the float out the waterstay pulls tight and you can make the boat skinnier for the marina but not necessarily trailerable width.

    Another folding trimaran system is the one developed for the Polish built TNT34 trimaran it's a combination sliding and folding system which looks pretty interesting. It slides initially then folds.

    http://www.tnt34.com/
     
  4. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    I like that about Kurt's system!

    I am thinking close to a combination of dragonfly and farrier for me personally. But, must look at Kurt's system.

    Thanks
     
  5. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

  6. jamez
    Joined: Feb 2007
    Posts: 504
    Likes: 28, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 231
    Location: Auckland, New Zealand

    jamez Senior Member

    Kurt shows a sliding beam system on a number of his designs. But I don't recall reading about a built version over 20' LOA. Kurt could clarify if there has been a successful larger version launched. Mike Leneman did a similar system on his L7 design a few years back. But he used pultruded glass I beam sliding in a box. Still a relatively small boat and the system limited the interior space somewhat. Big advantage of the Farrier system is it allows a wide center hull with the floats folded under the flare.

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.530029433708282.118649.529944747050084&type=3

    Also check the Antrim 30 for a swing wing.
    http://www.antrimdesign.com/boats/antrim-30-trimaran-erin
     
  7. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

  8. tspeer
    Joined: Feb 2002
    Posts: 2,276
    Likes: 249, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1673
    Location: Port Gamble, Washington, USA

    tspeer Senior Member

    Yes. I've owned a Farrier trimaran, and I currently own a demountable trimaran. I am currently in the position that I can't haul my boat because I haven't found a boatyard on Puget Sound that can handle it. It's either too wide for the ordinary travel lifts, or too fragile for the monster travel lifts. And the boatyard I used to use, with its small jib crane, was driven out of business by environmentalists.

    When I had a folding trimaran, there were several times when I was able to get into a marina because I could fold on the water and use a normal slip, but would have had to anchor out if I'd not been able to fold.

    Yes, they are. You can fold when motoring. I would often fold just one side before entering a marina, so I had the stability of the remaining ama, but took up less space.

    However, there is obviously a big reduction in ultimate stability when folded. I wouldn't leave a folded Farrier on a mooring ball. I know of owners that keep their boat folded in a slip, and others that keep their boat folded on a boat lift. But the vast majority of owners that keep their boats in the water leave them unfolded. I would be concerned that the windage of the rig could capsize a folded Farrier in a storm.

    There are other disadvantages to mooring folded, too, like having to put anti-fouling paint on the sides of the amas.

    So while it's possible to moor folded, it is better to stay unfolded on the water as much as possible.

    While you're asking about questions of balance and mooring, I should also point out that the Farrier designs are very well balanced with regard to windage under bare poles. My current boat has a strong tendency for the bow to blow off the wind at low speeds, and it has a large turning radius, which makes maneuvering in a marina very difficult if not actually dangerous. The Farrier designs are very easy to maneuver at low speeds, especially if you can turn the rudder and motor simultaneously. I could turn my F-24 in not much more than its own length, and doing a 180 deg turn at an intersection in a marina was no problem.
     
  9. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 3,757
    Likes: 182, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 826
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated

    We find in our area (admittedly at times very windy) that multis have to carry higher minimum hp outboards than recommended it's just impossible to get them back to the shore without a tow otherwise. It took six of us one day to moor up a 6hp outboard equipped F-22 in a strong offshore breeze it was just being blown around like a leaf not much grab on the water and very lightweight.
     
  10. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    OK, that makes sense. A lot of sense.
     
  11. Richard Woods
    Joined: Jun 2006
    Posts: 2,206
    Likes: 160, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1244
    Location: Back full time in the UK

    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Was the daggerboard up or down? Did you try standing on an outrigger to give it "bite"?

    All the folding systems have advantages. On my folding system, as used on Wizard, Sango, Skoota catamarans etc they are:

    It is very, very simple and cheap to do. Just one bolt as a pivot (oversize so it doesn't cut into the wood) and one vertical bolt with a plate to hold the inner end of the beam in position.

    So four horizontal bolts and two vertical ones. All can be made without welding using "Home Depot" parts. The beam positions are not supercritical

    You can easily get the boat onto the trailer from the ground.

    You can have the mast up with the boat folded. As with F boats the beams don't go through the interior

    Once assembled the boat is just like a rigid beam boat, so no movement or squeaking

    No heavy lifting is required, buoyancy and gravity do the work

    But you cannot fold the hulls in the water

    The disadvantages of the sliding system are that they tend to be slack in the slots, which adds flexing, thus the boat loses stiffness - and makes noises which is disconcerting at best. Otherwise the beams cannot be slid together. You know what it is like when a drawer jams, imagine trying to close two at the same time, and then think of the drawers as being boat sized.

    Also its hard to fit the trampolines so they don't need to be re-tensioned on each opening, (unlike the F boats). You cannot get the waterstays really tight so the assembly cannot be really stiff.

    Not sure, but can you reduce/increase the beam while in the water?

    Although the Fboats can be folded quickly I don't see many owners bothering, even in very tight marinas (like Lund for example where the harbourmaster has put a 50% premium on multihulls because they take up so much space)

    The drawback to the Dragonfly is that the boat is held together with one wire. That's one reason I prefer folding forwards (as on my Strike 15 trimaran) as its more fail-safe

    I sailed against the TNT34 this summer. Another boat that used a combination folding/sliding system was the Tomcat 6.2. The early 1970's Westall Ocean Bird 30 trimaran was the first I know of that used "Dragonfly" style folding system

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs (who's just finished some catamaran sailing in Greece)

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 3,757
    Likes: 182, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 826
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated

    I was on the dock not the F-22 they had one crewmember on the bow of the main hull attempting to throw us a line and the other was operating the outboard the daggerboard and rudder were down. They could get fairly close to the floating pontoon but with no control. The boat is very light recently it was blown over on it's trailer while folded in the yard at the yacht club. The F-boats have quite a lot of windage when folded and in a recent gale even Shauns C31 lifted on it's trailer and bent one of the guides.
     
  13. cavalier mk2
    Joined: Mar 2010
    Posts: 2,121
    Likes: 54, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 214
    Location: Pacific NW North America

    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    They should tie the featherweights down like airplanes, maybe the club could consider putting in some rings on the hard?
     
  14. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 3,757
    Likes: 182, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 826
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated

    Yep it's being discussed and some proper anchor rings being set would solve most of the issues a lot of the problems spring from the mast up storage if they were derigged then it wouldn't be as much of an issue but then it would take longer to launch so in general ease of use wins out.

    50-50 Geoff's Corsair 28 moved forward in one of the big gusts on it's trailer and Michael's twin masted catamaran ripped out the mooring blocks (from my mooring in Warneet) again and went for a sail under wingmasts alone dragging the weights with it. Luckily it beached itself without damage.

    Here is some video of the boats in the 150kmh winds at Hastings Yacht Club.

    http://www.hastingsyachtclub.org.au/coverpage/stormy-weather-1st-oct.html
     

    Attached Files:


  15. cavalier mk2
    Joined: Mar 2010
    Posts: 2,121
    Likes: 54, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 214
    Location: Pacific NW North America

    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Definitely breezy! I move the Nicol into a drying cove when we get really strong forecasts and anchor from all corners but haven't dropped the mast for one yet. I missed one but it did fine on the mooring though the wind sounded like a jet engine in the rigging. The wing deck is a great sound board, I just need to tune the rig for power chords....
     
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.