Offshore Foiling Revolution-Gitana

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Apr 16, 2015.

  1. coralislander
    Joined: Apr 2015
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    coralislander coralislander

    Flaps explained on T rudder foils diagrammed.

    These new rudders are the result of close collaboration between Antoine Koch, architect Guillaume Verdier and members of Team New Zealand that are Jamie France, Bobby Kleinschmit and the Pure Design company. The valuable pieces that make up the rudders - shovel and hydrofoil - were manufactured during the 2014 Winter poles apart in the yard Core Builder, based in the North of Auckland, while Gitana Team members realized that complement helmets the device.

    https://translate.google.com/transl...gory=boats&page=multi_70_2015.html&edit-text=

    For the flaps to work they would have to be separated and be two individual elevation moving flaps to get past the rudder. How that works when the rudder is turned. They not letting on.


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    Sea state is a more difficult one. Routeing software does a good job in predicting wind strength and angle but it doesn’t do so well in factoring in the role of sea state. The days of seeking out surfing conditions are well and truly over, though, and it is very rare for modern racing yachts to go faster with waves than without. Wave direction also has a huge effect, and yachts only have to experience a 10-20° change in swell angle relative to the wind direction to be much less uncomfortable and slower.

    In the ideal pre-frontal zone, in flatter seas and in the right pressure band, the idea is to hitch onto the system and ride ahead of it for as long as possible. In this respect, monohulls have become closer to multihulls, whose ability to travel as quickly or even faster than a weather system can give them the freedom to slide in and out of pressure. But typically, navigators are trading off where they would like to be against how fast they can VMC (velocity made good against the course to the mark) down the track.

    The Cape Horn trap

    No matter how you dial into the weather systems, and no matter how far north organisers place waypoints or gates, everyone has to come down to 56°S eventually. Cape Horn extends down into the firing line of lows and this is where the options for positioning close down and crews can rapidly run out of runway. Timing is everything.

    Timing is critical on this ocean area and if navigators, solo yachtsman allow themselves to get chased too far south they can get trapped. Sometimes these yachts have a limited range of angles and, can come up by only 3-4° or down by the same, or less.

    Cape Horn can also present rough seas, as the long fetch and big swells of the Southern Ocean heap up on shallower water. There are also some navigation challenges as there are off lying islands.

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    Thanks for your explanation re the T foil on the main hull centre dagger board but I would not like to sail solo with the wind encountering the above sea states. I know from past experience sailing on 70ft plus seas with 90 plus MPH winds what can happen when a 20 - 30 foot wall - white water hits the stern and pushes the stern sideways with the rudder hard over to try and counteract the vessel being pushed side ways. At night almost impossible to judge. Three rudders immersed would be a big advantage to prevent this. Also The main hull centre dagger board with or without a T foil attached fully or partially engaged would a real hazard re hitting a submerged object, container, whale, large fish or debris rendering in all probably major structural damage to the main hull. All water tight bulk head compartments would have to be secured and they would filled with water thus unbalancing the vessel. If the T foil only was damaged or completely destroyed a decision would have to be made to continue or head for safer waters.

    Accordingly would it not be better to incorporate at the design processes to have a DSS foil boards system further forward towards the bow say approximately 1/3rd from the bow so less force would be required to lift the bow as apposed to the present suggested design the main hull dagger board angled is approximately 60% distance from the bows, which would be hide the mast that has most of the force / pressure to lift.?

    Your considered valued opinion would be appreciated.


    "In fact according to the DSS’s creator British yacht designer Hugh Welbourn, Wild Oats XI’s retro-fitted foil can be considered a ‘DSS-lite’, and therefore only achieves a relatively small percentage increase in performance compared to what would be expected with from an Infiniti yacht where the DSS foil is integral to the original design. It has a smaller area and is shorter than would normally be fitted to a 100ft maxi. It is also straight, whereas DSS foils normally have some curvature to them that raises the tip of the foil when it is deployed, creating yet more lift."

    At present the website states it is designed for mono hull only.



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    These seas or not quite as bad and this with 30 ft white water rumbling be hide a trimaran moments latter . What would be the result Doug.

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    Crossbeams drag.


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    Here again running but moderate seas not the southern Ocean center board raised.

    It was stated that reverse bows where designed to pierce through waves not to sail over the waves.

    Imagine a 80 ft confused sea state wave as the forward swell and a 80 ft confused sea state swell as the rear swell and the vessel is entering the trough at 36 - 40 mph boat speed and angled like ETNZ photo , 90 MPH wind gusts with the proposed CAD design 100 footer long thin / skinny forward hull bow sections from the mast. How much force would be require to lift the vessel with a hazard as [I reckon but accept to be corrected ] T foil on the main hull dagger board as opposed to a DSS foil. Plus what would be the result if there was a additional 20 ft top swell which the reversed bows drove through covering the entire three hulls bow deck areas including submerging both entire cross beams before trying to transiting the trough.

    Question when would you apply the lift to the foils which you state would not be often. You certainly would not want to much lift climbing, going up the back of the next swell onto the face once at the top to surf down and so on so on because as the photo shows the vessel would be sailing approximately 1 and half times or twice as fast as the swell speeds. To my way on thinking the foil lift would be applied about 2/3rds from the top surfing the down side by a DSS foil system rather than possibly a damaged main hull centre dagger board T foil [ which would require a tremendous re enforced case not to mention the dagger board it self to sustain the loads ] caused by hitting a submerged object or whale. DSS foils to my way on thinking would be less prone to damage especially a 36,000 nms continuous passage.

    All this at night manually on your 20 day solo no sleep scenario.

    Entirely possible.

    Re the emergency rudders question will try and find and post as people around me are trying to state exit this thread.



    http://www.thedailysail.com/offshore/15/68058/0/macif-maxi-trimaran-comes-together#

    Any idea what the holes are for on the cross beams.

    Any person got any idea the budget is for this monstrosity one person accommodation 100 ft carbon fibre boat. I suppose it could make a good cruising boat transiting through strait line 8 or cabins.

    Be bit a bugger having the first cabin though. Would there be enough room to go around the berths in each cabin / bulk head section or would you have to climb over every berth? ;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2015
  2. pogo
    Joined: Mar 2010
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    pogo ingenious dilletante

    Mmh,
    i think it will be a more conventional boat than most people think, or hope for.
    No wands, no inverted T daggerboard.
    The floats will have high freeboard to encounter chaotic wavepatterns. Thru heavy seas the boat will sail in static mode, longitudal trim will be controlled via inverted T- rudders under the floats.
    On flat water -flatter seastate-- the boat will fly on C- or L-foils and inverted articulating T-rudder under mainhull . ( Will this rudder be retractable --eleminating i's drag in static mode ?)

    Nothing new , everything is proven. No vulnerable gimmicks as permanent wavepiercing floats or wands for each ( additional ) horizontal foil that are useless in static mode .

    My opinion: they gonna keep it as simple as possible. they gonna design features for both modes as simple and safe as possible.

    pogo
     
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    --------------------------
    Macif doesn't use "C" or "L" foils-it uses UptiP foils on the amas which are the only single foils capable of controlling the altitude of the hull they are on with no moving parts.
    These are nothing short of revolutionary foils that make it practical for a large trimaran to fly. Macif may be the first full size trimaran to use one on each ama-Gitanna was the first full size tri to experiment with and UptiP foil on one ama-a "C" foil on the other.
     

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  4. coralislander
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    coralislander coralislander

    Offshore Foiling Revolution-Gitana


    Doug what's your definition on moving parts.

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/at...34th-americas-cup-multihulls-oracle-board.gif

    So the foil will not have a electro hydraulic servo system which also can be moved forward and aft within the dagger board centre case by hydraulic rams.

    If you answer yes what is there to prevent the foil from suddenly rising and suddenly lowering when raised. If there is a prevention system that fixes the foil to the Electro hydraulic servo system then there is certainly moving parts because he foil is attached to the foil dagger board centre case which moves and the foil is the on a different angle. According it must have moved with or by moving parts. It did not move by natural forces.

    Common law that has been argued re the courts applied to the above similar parameters .

    Lights that have moving parts and are fixed / screwed attached to a permanent fixture but can be removed individually are part of that fixture when attached.

    A light such as a table lamp that has moving parts and is movable to any position within the defined permanent fixed area is not part of / or the / it's deemed / above describe fixture until it is moved and held in place to the permanent fixture that is not movable.
     
  5. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    By no moving parts I meant no flaps or active ,constant AOI adjustment. The foil itself will have to have a system that allows rake adjustment to change the AOI infrequently -and to retract the board. A refined version of an UptiP foil will not have to be constantly adjusted. It is the simplest type of single* foil that also controls the ama altitude automatically.

    * another single foil that could control altitude would be a foil with a wand controlled flap or where the AOI of the whole board is controlled by a wand/feeler(Hobie Trifoiler).
     
  6. coralislander
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    coralislander coralislander

    Thanks for that clarification Doug. It certainly pays to ask when trying to determine what you are trying to say and what I'm trying to convey.

    Found some more photos re tris running with the sea state, when they aren't even sailing huge southern ocean sea conditions.with raised boards.


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    I find it hard to believe a wand system similar to a hobie
    cat design you mention [ bracketed ] and the photo would survive the southern ocean giant boat destroying seas.
    They would not with stand solid or white water hitting them at 30 mph or more.

    Clarification = built appropriately for each individual size vessels.
    If they could they would certainly cause huge drag, transiting the Antarctica roaring forties seas / oceans regions.


    Some regulations from ISAF Multihull CAT 1 Regs

    Language & Abbreviations Used
    Mo - Monohull
    Mu - Multihull
    " ** " means the item applies to all types of yacht in all Categories except
    5 for which see Appendix J or 6 for which see Appendix L.



    3.07.2 Escape Hatches, Underside Clipping Points & Handholds

    [D]
    A multihull shall have on the underside appropriate handholds/clipping
    points sufficient for all crew (on a trimaran these shall be around the
    central hull).

    3.09.5
    A bow, lateral, central or stern well shall be considered a cockpit for the
    purposes of OSR 3.09

    3.14.4 Special Requirements for Pulpits, Stanchions, Lifelines on
    Multihulls
    Mu0,1,2,3,4

    The following
    c) on a trimaran - at a main or emergency steering position on an outrigger
    with or without a cockpit, lifelines protecting an arc of 3 meters diameter
    centred on the steering position. (When measuring between lifelines their
    taut, undeflected positions shall be taken for this purpose).

    3.14.3 The following shall be provided: **
    c) lifelines (guard lines) supported on stanchions, which, with pulpits, shall
    form an effectively continuous barrier around a working deck for man over board
    prevention.

    I interpret this as if a crew member has to go forward to put the reefing sail luff clew on the boom hook to secure the reefed main sail at the mast before the halyard is re tightened / raised plus if reefing point ties are included as part of the main sail reefing securing system to he boom then a pulpit stanchion guard at the mast with stanchions along the coach roof / or deck with required continuous lines to a solid hold stanchion at the aft furthest reefing tie aft eyelet point section.



    4.06 Anchor(s)

    4.06.1 An anchor or anchors shall be carried according to the table below: **
    a) The following anchors shall be provided
    i For yachts of 8.5 m LOA (28 ft) and over there shall be 2 anchors together
    with a suitable combination of chain and rope, all ready for immediate use
    MoMu1,2,3
    ii For yachts under 8.5 m LOA (28 ft) there shall be 1 anchor together with a
    suitable combination of chain and rope, all ready for immediate use
    MoMu1,2,3

    4.26 Storm & Heavy Weather Sails
    a storm trysail which shall be capable of being sheeted independently of
    the boom with trysail area not greater than 17.5% mainsail hoist (P) x
    mainsail foot length (E). The storm trysail area shall be measured as (0.5 x
    leech length x shortest distance between tack point and leech). The storm
    trysail shall have neither headboard nor battens, however a storm trysail is
    not required in a yacht with a rotating wing mast which can adequately
    substitute for a trysail


    SECTION 6 - survival TRAINING
    6.01 At least 30% but not fewer than two members of a crew,
    including the skipper shall have undertaken training within the
    five years before the start of the race in both 6.02 topics for
    theoretical sessions, and 6.03 topics which include practical,
    hands-on sessions.


    4.15 Emergency Steering
    4.15.1 Emergency steering shall be provided as follows:
    a) except when the principal method of steering is by means of an
    unbreakable metal tiller, an emergency tiller capable of being fitted to the
    rudder stock;

    b) crews must be aware of alternative methods of steering the yacht in any
    sea condition in the event of rudder loss. At least one method must have
    been proven to work on board the yacht. An inspector may require that
    this method be demonstrated. MoMu0,1,2,3

    3.28.1 Propulsion Engines **
    a) Engines and associated systems shall be installed in accordance with their
    manufacturers’ guidelines and shall be of a type, strength, capacity, and
    installation suitable for the size and intended use of the yacht.**
    **
    b) An inboard propulsion engine when fitted shall: be provided with a
    permanently installed exhaust, coolant, and fuel supply systems and fuel
    tank(s); be securely covered; and have adequate protection from the
    effects of heavy weather. **

    c) A propulsion engine required by Special Regulations shall provide a
    minimum speed in knots of (1.8 x square root of LWL in metres) or (square
    root of LWL in feet) MoMu0,1,2,3

    Have not found the amendment as yet for the emergency rudders as I previously stated but read them some where.

    Interesting the quoted above regs where the rudder is not a stern rudder. Where is the rudder stock to fit the emergency rudder tiller = above deck = below decks or just below the cockpit floor. No openings are allowed that would allow a breaking wave to enter the main hull compartments> So a special rudder stock compartment perhaps from the hull bottom to deck level. Rudder completely destroyed taking part of the hull bottom with it. What do you have then with no ama hinged hull rudders ?
    The main hull height on the proposed vessels are huge.


    These are from the 2012 and 2013 amendment notices.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2015
  7. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    I was certainly never talking about a wand system similar to a Hobie cat-there is no Hobie cat that uses wands! The Hobie Trifoiler uses "feelers" that stick out in front of the boat and move the whole foil. A wand similar to my Fire Arrow is what I was talking about but better than that would be an electronic system and maybe even a electro-hydraulic manually controlled system.
    Dr. Bradfield used dual wands on his 40' SKAT an they may be able to be scaled up but there is probably a better way to control lift on a big boat.
     

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  8. coralislander
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    coralislander coralislander

    Sorry about that I automatically thought hobie cats as I did not realise hobie has designed and built a trimaran by that brand name.

    Hope you accept my apology.
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Offshore Foiling Revolution

    No apology required. Glad you're interested in this stuff!
     
  10. coralislander
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    coralislander coralislander


    Found the reference to the rudder issue. Not ISAF reg as yet. Did not notice the ? to the title Posting but was the recommendation from

    Plus other findings to incident inquiry reports

    http://www.ussailing.org/racing/offshore-big-boats/big-boat-safety-at-sea/safety-incident-reports/ US Sailing instigated by the USCG. They lost there rudder completely.


    Re: New Safety Rules?





    The report and the recommendations regarding 2013 Islands Race Tragedy was published:

    summary of the panel’s finding:

    Panel Findings:
    1. The accident was caused by the failure of the vessel’s rudder while sailing off a lee shore.

    2. The emergency rudder preparations on Uncontrollable Urge were not adequate for the conditions in which the original rudder failed, despite the efforts of the crew.

    3. The panel believes that if the skipper of Uncontrollable Urge told the USCG they were in distress initially when the rudder broke the USCG would have responded by sending help immediately. Even if assistance from the USCG was not needed it would have increased their options for rescue.

    4. Help from the race boats would have given Uncontrollable Urge additional options for rescue.

    5. The flight time for the USCG the night of the Islands Race was 50 minutes for the helicopter to be on the scene and another 60 minutes to ready hoist operations and pull the crew to safety. Before the USCG arrived the crew of Uncontrollable Urge had to be self-sufficient.

    6. By the time the skipper of Uncontrollable Urge asked for assistance from other racers the vessel was one mile from the shore. Other race boats that could have responded with assistance were a considerable distance downwind and it is unlikely that those vessels would have been able assist Uncontrollable Urge due to her proximity to the lee shore.

    7. The course of Uncontrollable Urge after the rudder failure was almost entirely dictated by the wind and swell direction. Her position was always moving towards the Island.

    8. None of the emergency steering methods tried by the crew of Uncontrollable Urge worked in the conditions. The requirement of OSR 4.15.1 b) is “crews must be aware of alternative methods of steering the yacht in any sea condition in the event of rudder loss. At least one method must have been proven to work on board the yacht”. The crew of Uncontrollable Urge assumed that since they had success steering Columbia 32C hull #1 off of Newport Beach, Calif. in 10 knots of wind using just the sails they would be able to steer Uncontrollable Urge in the conditions they found off of San Clemente Island during the Islands Race.

    9. The crew of Uncontrollable Urge found that even with the engine at full throttle none of the emergency steering measures gave them enough directional stability to counteract the leeway generated by the large sea state. If no methods of emergency steering have been tried prior to a rudder failure there is no way to know if the emergency steering method will work in any sea condition.

    10. Four of five Spinlock deck vests failed to work properly, allowing the flotation chamber to pull over the wearer’s head to one side of the body. The deceased was found floating face down with the flotation chamber pulled over his head. Given that the crew had to swim through large surf to reach the shore this was a life threatening failure.

    11. OSR Category 3 is defined as “Races across open water, most of which is relatively protected or close to shorelines”. US Sailing prescribes “that Category 2 races are of extended duration along or not far removed from shorelines, where a high degree of self-sufficiency is required of yachts but with the reasonable probability that outside assistance would be available for aid in the event of serious emergencies”. While the Islands Race has a rated distance of 129.5 nautical miles the northwest corner of San Clemente Island is 75 miles from San Diego Buoy #1 and therefore in inclement conditions help is not readily available.

    Panel Recommendations:

    1. Vessels that race offshore should have adequate rudders so that heavy weather sailing conditions do not cause them to break. This may require plan approval or an inspection from a naval architect or marine surveyor.

    2. Crews should be aware of how to contact the Coast Guard or other vessels and to indicate the amount of assistance required. The US Sailing Safety at Sea Course should address how to communicate clearly with the USCG and other race vessels in case of distress. A broken rudder should be considered an emergency situation in heavy seas and high winds. Specifically, sailors should understand when a Mayday or PAN PAN urgency transmission is justified. Crews must be realistic about their level of danger.

    3. US Sailing should recommend that all race boats post near the VHF clear directions on how to communicate when the vessel is in distress. Some VHF instruction manuals have specific language on how to communicate when the vessel is in distress that skippers and crews should read.

    4. Skippers and crews need to be aware of methods of rendering assistance to other vessels, including providing skills and advice, providing tools, acting as a communications relay, towing, and transfer of crews.

    5. When sailors are in a life threatening situation, they should seek and pursue all possible options for assistance, including accepting assistance from other vessels.

    6. The US Sailing Safety at Sea Committee should recommend that the Offshore Special Regulations Category 0, 1, and 2 replace 4.15.1 b) “crews must be aware of alternative methods of steering the yacht in any sea condition in the event of rudder loss. At least one method must have been proven to work on board the yacht. An inspector may require that this method be demonstrated” with language that states yacht’s emergency steering shall be constructed to the same or greater strength standard as required for the yacht’s primary steering and that can be deployed in any weather condition.

    7. Organizing Authorities of offshore races could offer the option to boat owners to submit a video of their emergency rudder deployment on their boat in lieu of OSR 4.15.1 b) “An inspector may require that this method be demonstrated”. A video of the man overboard practice could also be required.

    8. Safety tethers need a quick release that will work in any condition. The cutter, knife, or shackle that requires both hands to release is not a viable option.

    9. Several crew members experienced problems when the inflation chamber of the life jacket was pushed over their heads, causing asymmetrical buoyancy. The panel recommends that Spinlock and other manufacturers examine the design of their inflating vests and consider making the inflation chamber more secure to the harness.

    10. The Organizing Authorities for the Islands Race, Newport Harbor Yacht Club and San Diego Yacht Club should designate the Islands Race as an OSR Category 2 race.




    The question again, the existing rule re the rudder stock tiller requirement and fitting when there is no main rudder to steer by but float rudders and linkages are still on working and in functional order.
    So it makes sense to not do away with float hinged float rudders or hinged main rudder so as all options are available. Like polluted garbage waterways during moderate light conditions and to reduce drag lift main rudder and the chances that both float rudders are unusable or damage at the same time. Probability ? Main rudder broken smashed completely and the other rudders [ float rudders ] in working functional order which at the time where lifted by there hinge ability and where not exposed to the risk.
     
  11. coralislander
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    coralislander coralislander

  12. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Trifoiler-I included a picture in my last post. (#37)
     
  13. pogo
    Joined: Mar 2010
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    Location: Germany Northsea

    pogo ingenious dilletante

    This kind of craft is called tripod.
    A narrow mainhull and two ( forked --far in front) surboards with masts.
    The idea was to connect two planing surfboards, pulling a pod with the helmsman sitting in there.
    These crafts were for speedstrips only ---beam reach to broad reach---so they disappeared.
    A whole other concept than a trimaran.




    There is a revolution, revolution, revolution......

    "There is reason to fear that the Revolution may, like Saturn, devour each of her children one by one."
    Pierre Vergniaud








    pogo
     
  14. coralislander
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    coralislander coralislander


    [​IMG]

    Here it is on solid ground showing the L foils with bow extensions ski floats to prevent nose diving I guess. From the same selection group pics available As Pogo states they did not last or prove popular or capture a WSSC world speed record for there time. Hobie has the Kayak Trimaran non foiler.

    [​IMG]
     

  15. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    A version of the trifoiler called "Longshot" was(is) a record holder. The boat was very fast in over 10 knots but did not sail well in light air.
    The "feelers" that stick out in front are part of the altitude control system moving the whole foil to control altitude and generate righting moment.

    From wikipedia:

    In the 1990s the Hobie Cat company manufactured the TriFoiler (no longer in production), a twin-sail trimaran with a mainsail on each outrigger capable of 30+ knot speeds in typical sailing conditions, making the TriFoiler the fastest production sailboat in the world. The prototype of the Hobie TriFoiler, called Longshot, was developed by brothers Dan and Greg Ketterman in conjunction with Russell Long. Though more streamlined than the Trifoiler and having smaller hydrofoils, Longshot still holds the Class A speedsailing record of 43.55 knots on a 500 meter course, set in Tarrifa Spain in 1993. Until recently, it was the only existing speedsailing record held by a hydrofoil, but the recent records of Hydroptère have added to the list with record breaking runs across the English Channel.[5]
     
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