Offer: true go anywhere Trawler to build "side by side"

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by apex1, Aug 4, 2009.

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  1. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Schaarhörn, 1908 Janssen & Schmilinsky Hamburg, 41x6,80m, 230BRT, I know almost every bolt and rivet................
    a alltime beauty.


    Alexandra, another Janssen & Schmilinsky, built 1908 too, 37x7m, 140BRT

    The picture below shows Kronprinz 35x6,4m, 120BRT, 1910 Neptun Werft. In the background left, Schaarhörn drydocked. Both underwent their major refit at the same time in Hamburg. Jöhnk Werft, 1991 (my picture)

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  2. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    I thought you will know her!
    It must be a treat to go onboard. She is a a real beauty.
    I saw her lines drawing in a magazine years ago, I think she displace 400 tons, but that I am not sure. I remember the lines drawing, very gracefull, extremely easy and flowing. A beautiful design, like so often on steam yacht design.
  3. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Nice....nice "looking" Richard

    The D.Gerr is a nice 'classic' looking design too.

    Has your NA stated a weight estimate yet? we can see what 'budgets' ahve been allocated to such things like the engines and propulsion systems etc....this way, certainly dskira could more than most, with his superior knowledge on those heavy diesels, see what other options may be possible.
  4. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Wow...wonderful 'old boats' can almost smell the salty sea permeated with the smell of soot
  5. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    I realy apreciate, but my knoweldge is far from superior. I had the oportunity to be on vessel with ABC three cylinders, on other with Guascor 6 cylinders (more modern configuration medium speed) and for smaller vessel the Fita, one monstruous cylinder (made on order), a design like the old Lister, and my favorite, but medium speed, the Kelvin 6.
    At the time almost all the engine for fishing vessel use to be of low speed or medium speed, large displacement, accepting all sort of fuel. Some on direct coupling with engine stopped and re-started in reverse.
    And some of these engine built from scratch without a brand name.
    I was investigating here in the US the use of the Arrow oil field engine for boat, but the client back of of the project. I have a real passion for old oil field engine.
    I am not, by far a mechanic, I just love low speed engine, for their simplicity, reliability, and for personal sentimental reason. I love the noise, the smell and the feeling of strenght of these engines. All of them always had a very spacious engine room, due to the maintenance, all of them can be overhall in situ, and also the price been much higher, better to take care of them!
    You see nothing very professional on that, just good memories.
    But didn't I say I will not come back to this subject:D
  6. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    Gooday Dan

    Nice to talk the other day

    I think we can all class them as such

    1— Slow the crosshead 2 cycle 100 –400 rpm ships engine the efficiency just keeps improving, mech efficiency highest of any internal combustion engine

    2—slow to medium speed, 400-900 rpm mostly four cycles

    3 medium – fast 900 1500

    4 fast to high speed 1500 2300

    High speed to very high speed which is above 2500

    So we have a choice for this boat number 2, heavy, and very expensive, because of the massive forgings, and castings and 3, medium

    I would opt for 3

    The way a ship is designed, , what screw? From the screw comes the engine type,

    But now we see people saying, oh we have a engine, so what screw? This is back to front
    We say this ship needs this screw, and then we match engine and gear
    In this case with Apex the optimum would be a Cummins KTA type

    Well this engine does 30000- hrs in mining sit without touching Mining, is very harsh on engines, So he can take this eng with deep reduction, and fraction price slower engine, and when he is long dead this will be running)

    IF you google tuna fleet NA you will see most ships are Cummins powered
    World wide back up, unparalleled warranty
    747,s and Cummins are maybe the best things to come out of USA
    Well in early 70, s I worked for Cummins
    I was also as I said to you, 2nd engineer tug Chippy T, out of Great Yarmouth UK operating Ecofisk field half way between Aberdeen and Norway
    we had medium speed 900 rpm, 6 to one reduction 12 foot ss screws, I tink from memory 5 blade
    nobody has mentioned the excellent medium sp. Jap diesels as used in the Tuna long line boats
  7. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Until the boat is tank tested and the resistance is known in all conditions, the drag and hence the thrust required from the prop is also unknown. So using the CPP that Richard wants requires more data and hece which engine is best to deliver the power to provide the thrust requires across the speed range.

    Need to tank test first, before saying which engine is best...
  8. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    no doubt abt it mate you are 100% theory, still carry on, nobody least of all I listen
    who the fuch tank tests?
  9. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect


    I see you're back to your usual ad hominem and diatribe rants again rather than actually contributing again worth while.

    " doubt abt it mate you are 100% theory, still carry on, nobody least of all I listen
    who the fuch tank tests?.."

    Clearly someone who "don't tell me anything because I've been in building for 40 years" thinks is not necessary just speaks volumes of what you have, or rather have not, been doing for 40 years....

    So, in the 70s, which is only 30 years ago, not this what you call building, working for cummins and also a 2nd engineer on a tug?
  10. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    I agree fully. Tank testind is a very good way to detect the whole hull strenght and weakness.
    No having often the fund to ask a proper tank testing facility to test, I use model, scaled on size and weight distribution, and tested here on the pound. Sometime self propelled. It is amazing how just that simple test will show me the main character of the hull. I am not saying it's scientific by far, but it is very helpful.
    I find sometime redesigning the hull because of this test, mostly when the design is of norms. I tested different style of bow, from full depth bow to cutaway bow. It was very enlightening.

    Now about old engine this last one, I can't resist:The 1929 Krupp engines on the previous RosenKavalier, (I think Haida now, the original name) a very amazing and beautiful vessel. The engines still goind strong, 750 hp @ 250 Rpm. Talk about torque:)

  11. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    Quite a beauty.
  12. wardd
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    wardd Senior Member

    my contribution


    more years ago than i care to think about i was a modelmaker for boeing/vertol making models for wind tunnel testing, even then the science of model testing was amazingly accurate as to the real thing, can anyone say flextures

    and this was a time when mechanical calculators and slide rules were still in use

    a few strain gauges will tell you a lot

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  13. apex1

    apex1 Guest

  14. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Of course not completely. I am still not through with my accommodation. The first calc.s were made at 5 tons for the complete propulsion (engine, red. gear, shaft, prop).
    But we start from scratch anyway, due to going wider.

  15. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    I just like to try to resume what I know from the thread:

    The vessel is wider, longer and is displacement is around 140 tons
    The engine room will 3 m high full beam, accessible from the interior corridor and deck
    The pilothouse will be 360 degree with head and sink.
    The owner room will be close to the point of least motion of the vessel
    The boat will be built of steel. Superstructure can be alu (I think)
    The generators are not important, can be replaced.
    Batteries is in, for silence and convenience
    The range is 5000 nm
    It will be go anywhere, built to ram a floating container at full speed.
    Ice resistant but not ice class. (I think I understood that way)
    The bulbous bow still in discussion but close to be scrap (I think, I am not sure)
    CPP mendatory (base of the whole concept of the vessel)
    One engine, one shaft, one wheel.
    Wet exhaust, or dry/wet exhaust, cooling not decided (I am right on this one?)
    Very efficient fuel polishing system.
    Tank testing is in. One model allready tested was refused.
    Naval architect will re-work the weight estimate due to increase of size.
    Engine was 25 liters displacement, can be larger due to increase of displacement from 100 tons to 140 tons.
    5 tons was allowed for the mechanical, but can be increase. See above.
    A profile was shown, the vessel final profile will be close to the one posted. No nonsense vessel, comercial grade.
    The project attracted two interrested parties.
    The vessel as to be built with a sistership in the same time.
    The price will be 2.4 Euros for the new dimensions
    The resale value of the vessel will be not a major concern.

    I did'nt put in order, I just read again the whole thread taking notes.
    Did I miss or misenderstood some of the aspect of the project status?

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