Oceanic Satellite

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by BullSeal, Apr 14, 2010.

  1. DaGnome
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    DaGnome Junior Member

    WoW Stumble you already have BullSeal Tried and convicted! Kind of typical as of late, jump to the final conclusion before the design is even finished. Maybe you should suggest ways to improve the design before executing the designer! lol I think the idea has merit, as a data collector and even as , "God forbid a spy device!" :eek: :D
     
  2. Luckless
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    Luckless Senior Member

    The guy is suggesting he illegally place devices on ships sailing through international waters. One of the key parts to the current goal is Illegal. You cannot attach things to property owned by someone else, especially when they may pose a safety hazard or potential damage to said property.
     
  3. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    Think of the fun a captain & crew could have on finding one, each day, tether it on a cable to charge its batteries, then dunk it in a bucket of ****, next day in a bucket of bilge oil/water, next day in a bucket of used sump oil and so on, then sell the system to some foreign country who may appreciate the technology (N Korea?)...
     
  4. CDK
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    CDK retired engineer

    There probably isn't legislation for such a novelty project. Some people may have a gut feeling that it is illegal, but in international waters lots of things happen every day that are illegal yet continue.

    Exactly that may present a problem. Gathering data while being towed by a ship dumping food, oil and waste water could at best be useful to point out new targets for Sea Shepherd or Greenpeace.

    I do like the idea of a smart bug using its battery power to approach a hull, attach at the stern, then reel out a cable, ride in the wake and charge its battery in a 30+ knots flow. An interesting project!
     
  5. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    I don't really have a problem with the technology, and to be honest I think it would be a great source of scientific data. Particularly if the probe was also used by yachts. Of course it would depend on exacally how large this devise is to determine what ships are capable of carrying it, but it sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

    However the legalities of installing such a device without the knowledge or consent of the owner of the vessel is very clear. According the the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, §101

    Definition of piracy
    Piracy consists of any of the following acts:

    (a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:​

    (i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft; ​
    (ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place
    outside the jurisdiction of any State;​
    (b) any act of voluntary participation in the operation of a ship or
    of an aircraft with knowledge of facts making it a pirate ship or
    aircraft; ​
    (c) any act of inciting or of intentionally facilitating an act
    described in subparagraph (a) or (b).​

    Now installing these devices would probably be considered an act of violence against the ship, since in law violence also includes undesired intrusion onto or into a thing (tresspassing is actually a violent act). But it would certainly be considered a depredation of a vessel. Either way you and everyone who knowingly engaged in placing these things on a hull would be legal pirates. Opening yourself up to serious criminal charges. Basically under US being conviceted as a pirate or formally for "piracy under the law of nations" carries with it a mandatory life sentence. So unless you get a presidential pardon you will die in jail for attaching these things to peoples hulls.

    Now you could try and argue that you are collecting important data that is not available through other means, and that therefore you should get an exception. However even a cursory search would lead you to http://www.vos.noaa.gov/ which does exacally what you are contemplating, but gets permission from the ship owners. This system in one form or another has been in operation since the mid 1800's and is tied into a global coalition of research entities that have the funding to really do it right. Now this program was started to collect meterological data, but in recent years has been expanded with the advent of new sensors to include polution, particulate, algie bloom, and other types of data relavent to researchers.
     
  6. Ramius41
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    Ramius41 Junior Member


    So then what you are saying is to NOT get caught?...:D ...Seems like a fair statement!...:rolleyes:
     
  7. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    I don't think he was talking about doing this w/out permission.

    In fact, as long as the owners don't think it will come off and possibly foul the prop or rudder they would be "on board" just so they can use it for some Corporate "green" public relations.

    Who wouldn't want some University hook-up to put on their company wetsite or on the side of their ships?

    You could probably get a shipping company a BIG TAX WRITE-OFF because they are now operating "research vessels".

    Honorary Doctorate in Marine Bio for the company CEO, etc.

    However, I think you are going to get pretty limited set of data from the few main shipping lines, science wise...but even that should be lots.
     
  8. BullSeal
    Joined: Apr 2010
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    BullSeal Designer

    Monitor? enforcement?

    Who monitors and better, enforces! international law outside of coastal limits? No, this type of citizen based monitoring needs to stay anonymous and especially unknown to captains.

    The design has no trailed or tethered elements, that’s too susceptible to foiling or loss. Once clamped on with its snout mounted magnet it self-aligns with the flow. Again, how would you know it's not happening now for other purposes?
     
  9. BullSeal
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    BullSeal Designer

    Whaler police

    Also, what is the disposition of the well publicized and self-appointed "whale police" now endangering international whalers?
     
  10. MatthewDS
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    MatthewDS Senior Member

    Other people have pointed out that this would be illegal, and that it would irritate captains and ship owners. I wanted to point out that ship owners are deploying under-water ship surveillance systems that are designed to combat possible terrorist operations.

    My point is this, when you get caught sticking suspicious looking packages on vessels, (and you will get caught) you will be prosecuted as a terrorist.

    Do.. not.. do.. this..

    If you want ocean environmental data, built an autonomous rover, and turn it loose. Your idea is a mistake from start to finish.
     
  11. DaGnome
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    DaGnome Junior Member

    :rolleyes: Ok, since all the world prosecuters have voiced their opinions, lets say for arguements sake that Bull has permissiom to place one under a ship! :idea: Lets talk about the design now! lmao
     
  12. Luckless
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    Luckless Senior Member

    If he has permission to place them there, then as I said he just simplified his design by a great margin. No longer needs a method to swim by itself, no longer needs automatic attachment systems, etc, etc.
     
  13. MatthewDS
    Joined: Mar 2010
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    MatthewDS Senior Member

    Assuming that he has permission?

    The energy requirements to drive an autonomous vessel at 30kt for any length of time, or to reach international waters (say, 12-200 nm offshore?) would dictate a very large vessel, say, Volkswagen-sized. Put another way, in a craft as small as you have described, you simply can't hold enough energy (batteries, diesel fuel, nuclear reactor) to drive that fast, or that far.

    If you could power it, how would it operate? Unless you drive it up to the tanker in a skiff, (if this is your plan, you should read the somali pirate thread on this site) it will have to seek out vessels underwater and connect to them autonomously. I'm certain this isn't a trivial task.

    Finally, how does it communicate and collect data? GPS doesn't work under water, or under ships. Sat phones won't work either.

    The design process is about identifying challenges, solving them individually, and putting all the solutions together to form a completed product. No doubt some of the challenges in this project could be overcome, others, probably not.
     
  14. BullSeal
    Joined: Apr 2010
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    BullSeal Designer

    design

    Big difference between a "hobo" craft and trying to create and fund a gloabl going VW sized Ocean Satellite. Here is a better idea of the cheaper benign concept. Barely buoyant, couple mile range, could be any material. Working on the elimination of the magnet coupling into a flow induced suction coupling for detection reasons. Ideas? comments? more threats?.... I think this could be the shipping industries best defense against lil nuisance pirate vessels, in a fashion.
     

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  15. Luckless
    Joined: Mar 2009
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    Luckless Senior Member

    So, how much damage can this thing do when it fails and detaches, and just happens to strike the ship's prop? Think worst case now, because best case on your plan of secretly hitching rides on ships is getting sued to back to the stone age.
     
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