Ocean Crossing In A Small Boat

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by venomousbird, Jan 28, 2009.

  1. Landlubber
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    Location: Brisbane

    Landlubber Senior Member

    I have had people question me on occassions wondering where we anchored for the night at sea!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  2. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Clearly, the canoe body suggests a full displacement form. It has been said that the subject could not only quickly achieve hull speed, but was capable of long, sustained periods of motion when speeds well beyond the theoretical could be generated and effortlessly maintained. You may even call it loafing along, if that suggests a proper image to your liking. These speeds could be expressed in all forms of weather and sea state, as there was always a bigger, objective purpose beyond the minor inconvenience of the meteo realities.

    The fact that it's a dinosaur, well, let's just say that the irony is hovering on the fully realized side of the equation and let it go at that. It is germane to the discussion on many levels, not the least of which, that it was typically 24' LOA, placing it squarely in the same realm as the craft of our boy, TCube.
     

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  3. venomousbird
    Joined: Jul 2007
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    Location: vancouver, BC, Canada

    venomousbird Junior Member

    Okay, this thread is getting flat out strange now. . .
     
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  4. diwebb
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: New Zealand

    diwebb Senior Member

    Hi,
    in my younger days about 40 years ago I owned a 19 foot itchen ferry and she was timed at ten and a half knots over approximately two miles betwen buoys, when racing, in 25 knots of wind and setting 550 sq. ft. of sail ( the whole crew sitting at the transom to keep the bow out of the water and the stern wave a good six feet behind the transom). I built a modified Bruce Roberts Offshore 38 in California and frequently sailed her at 12 knots for extended periods of time reaching and running in winds of 25 to 40 knots. So I have no problems in believing TC when he extolls the benefits of the Itchen Ferry design. I just wish I could have been with him on such an epic sail!!!
    David
     
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  5. Tcubed
    Joined: Sep 2008
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    Location: French Guyana

    Tcubed Boat Designer

    People who really know what they are talking about know that i have no reason to exaggerate. I would only lose credibility. However, there are always people with limited experience who believe they know more than they do and are quick to ridicule what they do not believe to be possible.

    Well, no one got to share that experience with me. I prefer not to have men crew, and sometimes finding a willing lady does not happen.

    When running in heavy airs like that i observed also the very big difference between static and dynamic stability, reinforcing my thinking that static stability righting moment polars are very limited when it comes to accurately describing the motions of a boat at speed in a seaway.

    In this particular example the boat would roll through increasing angles up to about 40 degrees either side and then would quieten down to smaller angles of say 10 degrees and then back again. That is as expected as disturbances get in and out of phase with the boats roll resonance and damping attenuates the motion. What was not as expected from static stability curves was the rate of roll acceleration throughout the cycle. As the boats max righting moment is beyond 40 deg it follows that the point of max roll acceleration should be at the instants of greatest heel, according to static stability polars. In actual fact the boat would sort of 'flop' onto its side and stay there for much longer than one would expect and then recover and very violently 'flop' over onto its other side.

    Apart from the boat losing stability when creating a deep through for itself i think the speed was great enough to create dynamic forces on the keel and hull section 'flats' that encouraged to boat to lie on its side and which had the effect of counteracting partially the rise of static righting moment in the range of angles described. The extreme case would be seen if accepting a tow from a ship which carried on at its normal cruise speed. Assuming the boat survived such violent abuse (the old pilots of the Bristol channel who thought nothing of the stinkiest weather would get very scared when towed by ships, even though the speed would not be anywhere as ridiculous as in the following hypothetical) at say 18 knots , i imagine the boat would plane on its side. So i imagine i was seeing the very beginnings of that effect superimposed upon the more normal expected roll response.
     
  6. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    You two guys (diwebb and Tcube) just crack me up. I mean this in the most loving fashion, of course. Take a long look at your two stories and then tell me if there aren't any major discrepancies in the supposed facts of the events.

    diwebb says that he and his crew had to ride the transom while flying a monster amount of sail in but 25 knots. Cube wants us to believe that he did his claimed 8 knot average while he was dosing along with a teensy storm cloth up in 40 knots with no crew for pitching ballast, such as utilized by diwebb and on and on... AND it went on like that for TWO DAYS!

    Two whole days while averaging his claimed 8 knots, all while he fixed himself something to eat, got to go below to pinch a loaf, get his head together and whatever else Cubey may have done on this wild epic in 40 knot storm driven mountainous seas.

    Melville would just love to read the stuff you two are putting out.

    Go read the skipper entries for the first week of the current Vendee Globe when the fleet was battered by 40 knot winds and towering seas. Several of the boats had to return to port for repairs with a couple of them out of the race due to dismastings and other maladies. Keep in mind that these are 60 foot boats, designed for the rigors of the Southern Ocean at racing speeds.. and they were getting their butts kicked in serious fashion. The same type of conditions, mind you, that our boy Cube wishes to tell us that drove his wonderful saga in but a 22 foot craft.

    http://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/

    These kinds of stories are the lovely, boastful sailing claims that typically come out of the heads of folks who think they have a lot more experience than others and they can just buffalo their reports at some seaside bar. All that is missing for you guys is a couple of shoulder mounted parrots, an eyepatch or two, a gnarly two week unshaven mug, that ever-present horizontally striped shirt and a pair of those dorky, Greek fisherman caps.... and about eight empty beer glasses arrayed before you on the bar.

    I enjoyed the stories, guys... lots of folks reading here did too, but please, give it a rest and Cubey... do take a moment to understand that you are hovering right on the edge of civility and about to blow your cover. For the record, I'm a lot more inclined to buy diwebb's version, simply because it addresses the business of crew positions, boat trim realities and the fact that he claims it only went on for two miles. With favorable currents, nicely timed surfing conditions and whatever boat speed could be mustered, this just might be possible... for two miles. Two days is a whole other bit of business. Two days in 40 knots is an eternity for a human being in a small boat.

    Like I said, nice yarns. Unless, of course, both of you characters are willing to acknowledge my unproved claims of having made it from L.A. to Hawaii in a time that bested the big, 80' monosleds.... on a 21' Reynolds beach cat while sailing SOLO with no sleep, at the leading edge of an east Pacific low that tracked steady all the way to Oahu. Oh, did I mention that I flew a hull the entire distance, only once touching down when I had to put some fresh charcoal on the stern mounted BBQ? Freshly caught Mahi-mahi is just so tasty when grilled promptly. It was a bit difficult to man the sheets and the tiller while spin-casting a flashy spoon off the stern, but it's a highly rewarding experience and I recommend it.

    This gnarly, epic adventure certainly ranks me among the greatest small craft sailors on the planet at any bar or grill in a neighborhood near you.

    Laters, fellow story tellers. May we meet over a beer some day and have a friendly yarn spinning contest. ;-)


    I love to sit around the yacht club bar
    and talk about the things I'm going to do.
    I love to sit around the yacht club bar
    because it doesn't move.
    The swells are big and the winds are high
    but that don't bother me.
    Cause I never get lost and my tummy doesn't toss
    It's a wonderful life on the sea.
    My boat it is a small one boys. My crew it is the best.
    I race around the entrance buoy beating all the rest.
    I'm the first one home with a bent elbow and a powerful salt spray thirst.
    I sit around and drink all night and see who comes in first.

    (borrowed from Lin and Larry Pardey)
     

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  7. Capn Mud
    Joined: Apr 2008
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    Location: Jakarta

    Capn Mud Junior Member

    The Original Question

    I have been thinking about the original question myself and wondering how to put it to them forum. This thread seems to offer the opportunity for comments from some wise heads.

    More specifically wondering if my 25 foot Swarbrick Pinnacle (somewhat modified) is up to the task of an ocean crossing, single handed. Refer attached.

    The next question then is am I up to it....

    And finally - how to get the wife's permission ;-)
     

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  8. Tcubed
    Joined: Sep 2008
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    Location: French Guyana

    Tcubed Boat Designer

    Say Chris, pray do tell me and the members what experience you have that enables you to put so much heart felt fervor and passion into debunking my contributions?
     
  9. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Bubba Cube... I don't have to reveal anything of my experience to call you out on your wild and wooley claims. That responsibility is totally yours in order to support your story in the face of what is and has been, known in the boating industry for some time now.

    Now, if sailors weren't, in fact, very much like fishermen in their zeal to expand upon their tales, then the issues could be brought forward with a clean and factual aspect. As it is, the numbers you wish to suspend before the readers do not add up from the boat you described. Well, not unless you have super powers beyond mortal men and I have this sneaky suspicion that is not the case.

    Why don't you produce a verifiable GPS track with sufficient data to back-up your claim. These data should be produced by a reputably manufactured unit with sufficient accuracy to provide justification of the claims as made. Make that so and I'll gladly back away from my busting of your boating prowess.

    Can't produce that, then the story is just that... a story and nothing more. Get in line with Jonah, Homer, Sinbad, Verne and Melville. That's pretty colorful company and should keep you quite content.

    Cube... there's nothing at all wrong with a good yarn. I love them dearly and deeply respect the time honored tradition of a well told sailing story. The danger is in taking them too seriously.
     
  10. GTO
    Joined: Jul 2007
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    Location: Alabama

    GTO Senior Member

    little boat strength

    And I wonder how Yankee Girl ( 10 feet LOA ) and Tinkerbelle ( 13-14 feet LOA ) managed to cross the Atlantic without being broken up.

    One plywood, the other planked and an added plywood cabin. Is it their small size that kept the forces acting upon them within surviveable limits?

    I don't think either one of them would be considered comfortable, but certainly meet the minimalist specification.
     
  11. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    You gave the right hint. Where the toy survives, the supertanker gets destroyed. In terms of structural strentgh the nutshell always wins.
    Regards
    Richard
     
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  12. Tcubed
    Joined: Sep 2008
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    Location: French Guyana

    Tcubed Boat Designer

    Chris, i was hoping for something a bit stouter from you but you're disappointingly predictable. Your cop out underlines your lack of real experience. Aside from reading the vendee website of course.

    I was born and raised on my fathers sailboat and including my own voyages have over 65 000 ocean miles experience.

    Had i used a GPS (i have always used a sextant) it would make no difference to you since i would be just reporting the numbers to you. With your logic, there is no reason to believe anything anyone here writes that you personally do not believe to be true. Also by discarding any information that falls outside your restricted belief system you prevent yourelf from gaining any really worthwhile and new insights.

    You remind me of the many kids at the schools i've attended (fifteen in all around the world) who would want to know what happened to my mother and when i would explain that she had been shot dead by pirates would laugh, ridicule and accuse me of lying. I used to find this very upsetting as i've been brought strict and honesty is something i highly value. But then i understood that they were just ignorant kids and they could not accept as real something that lay so far outside their sphere of experience.

    The reason i do not use my surname as a handle is because i want to be known for myself, rather than ride on my father's fame. Also it is my company logo. There are already some readers here who've connected the dots and know my name, now there will be more.

    You're sixty something, one would hope for more broadness of understanding than you exhibit.

    At no point did i claim to be superhuman, the trip to be extraordinary, the entire crossing to be fast, or in fact that there was a storm during the two days remarkable run, or that i was sat back relaxing whilst the boat was surfing down big waves. Those are your embellishments made in ignorance to enhance the wit you believe to be contributing.

    What i find particularly funny is the maths show clearly there is no reason a sailboat can exceed its 'hullspeed' given enough power. When going downwind the longitudinal righting moment is much larger than the transversal righting moment so the boat can be pressed much harder than otherwise. Add to that consistently surfing down the waves and there is no tall tale whatever (my intent was illustrative not boastful) if you could just drop your absurd ageing surfer posturing.
     
  13. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Cubey,

    I never had you pegged for a Doug Lord clone, but I guess that there's a surprise around every corner.

    Doug makes bombastic claims on a regular basis and has nothing at all of substance to back up said claims... you have done your best to follow his lead. "I can boast, says The Cube, but I can't prove it"

    Doug enters the realm of personal vitriol once confronted by a person who calls him out on his fairly tale... you find it important to do the same.

    Doug lifts the realm of credulity to new heights with the art of the poseur seeking glorified redemption... and now, with this grog soaked, bar room, slobber song.... so do you.
     
  14. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Doug,

    Do you have MS Word, old chap? You might want to run that last bit through from a cut and paste to clean-up a few minor details of grammar and spelling. A repost is just a precious few keystrokes away after that and you'll be so much more credible.

    Just a friendly hint from a bloke who marvels at your use of the language.
     

  15. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Nuts

    =========================================

    Nuts

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ostlind, you use ridicule and innuendo so often in your attack posts that one would think you consider yourself a master of some sort of art form. In reality your personal attacks, name calling and flowery absurdities reak more of bad graffiti seen in a mens room.
    You,sir, seek to diminish your "targets" by any means necessary and you play fast and loose with the facts in your quest. But you have diminished yourself way more than you have diminished anyone else. You disregard facts that don't fit your preconceived notions and then speak of your fantasies as if they were facts. In the last few months your posts have become more vitriolic ,more personal attack oriented and deliberately obstructionist in some threads. You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with me and what I stand for and that has slowly eroded your ability to think clearly. I think you probably have serious problems and should consider getting help. Brother, you really need help.
     
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