numbers needed for certification

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Jorgoz, Jan 17, 2003.

  1. Jorgoz
    Joined: Jan 2003
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    Jorgoz Junior Member

    Hello people,

    i'm new to this forum so forgive my french :D .

    I've just perchased plans from Glen-l for their ZIP outboard runabout design. I haven't got a problem with the plans, they're great, but i've got another BIG problem. If i'm to build the boat and then i would like to sell it i need a EC-certificate :mad: . I already asked Glen-l for some help, but there's not much happening, they asked the designer of the boat and he said he didn't make those kind of calculations for such a small boat.

    So you see my problem, as i'm new to boatbuilding and don't know squat about it ;) i'm not able to do these numbers myself. Are there any people out here who could help me ? I've attached the certificate i'm talking about.

    George
     

    Attached Files:

  2. yipster
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    yipster designer

    ...

    EC

    :eek: since some years this EC exists i know but for whom? i learned from this doc. that an upside down triangle is the symbol for loaded displacement volume and more, but what a questions and what is is good for since nowhere a reference is given to the ideal or unacceptable numbers? cats and other confuguration boats need different forms? bet boats up to 10 meter got even way more than the 13 sheets form here? where to find such? whats the fee for registering? and much more questions rise. when selling as used do you need a EC also? iff all this makes better boats?

    yipster

    My apology’s for only adding questions here but this applies to other efforts to, hope we get some information here on this EC certificationing.
     
  3. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
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    gonzo Senior Member

    In the USA the Coast Guard has guidelines that regulate amount of passengers and cargo any boat can have. This changes for each country. Check with your local authorities for the proper formula to calculate it.
     
  4. yipster
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    yipster designer

    lost my bet, powerboats over 6 meter is "önly" 10 sheets...
    and have you seen the rest of the regulations on steering, engine, etc. at: http://www.imci.org/ the site also mentions a spreadsheet that i cant find, so i asked info on this since that may considarably simplify the formulas;)
     
  5. DavidG
    Joined: Jan 2002
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    Location: Chichester, England

    DavidG Junior Member

    RCD

    If your boat is intended for design category C Inshore or D Sheltered Waters, then you can self certify. You still need to complete a Technical Construction File and Owners Manual to demonstrate complience to the Recreational Craft Directive.

    To demonstrate this, it is best to demonstrate complience to ISO standards. The key ones relate to Stability, Structure, Powering and Maximum Load.

    Unfortunately copies of the standards are very expensive.

    Although this all may appear a waste of time, this is good news for the consumer, as it should ensure some level of safety and protection from cowboy builders.

    Have a look on my website for some free info www.boatsurvey.biz

    Hope that this helps.
     
  6. Jorgoz
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    Jorgoz Junior Member

    still stuck

    Thx for the responses guys, but it's still all a blur :confused:

    I know about self-certification. The boat will be in the A or B categorie. But on the 12217-3 form there's no mention of A or B, just C and D. :confused:

    Some people have told me to fill out some ballpark figures, as they think the bureaucrats don't even know what it's all about themselves :rolleyes:

    As you speak about cowboy builders, there are also enthousiastic builders that whant to build good boats and i think all these regulations scare them off (kills creativity :mad: )

    Hope to get some more help..... ;)

    George
     
  7. ErikG
    Joined: Feb 2002
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    Location: Stockholm, Sweden

    ErikG Senior Member

    Are you going to build it to sell it?

    If not, then just mark it up as a cat C boat! :)

    Why? Because there are no rules as yet in EU that you need to comply with what the category says is the boats intended area of use (AFAIK).

    You can go anywhere in the world in your cat C boat! It might be more problematic to get insurance in the future. No one will ever force you to show your Cat. cert. when going offshore.
    I've been told that to get a standard Cat A will cost you around 5000 € if you don't have a great numbers guy at "the office".

    I'm also interrested if anyone has more input concerning EU classification, and please correct me if anything above is incorrect.

    Good luck

    Erik
     
  8. Mike D
    Joined: Sep 2002
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    Mike D Senior Member

    yipster

    The Excel files, they are difficult to find the way they are set up.

    They are .exe files not .xls and they are saved in a crazy manner. The best thing is to click on the word Excel with the mouse right button and then click on Save Target As using the left button.

    Do not change the file name but save it wherever you wish. When you open the file it will open the Excel file.

    While all this paperwork seems to be just more bureaucratic red-tape it ought to improve standards particularly for operators. It is particularly unfortunate that those intended to be the most protected are the least able to understand the technicalities of the process and its documentation.

    Michael
     
  9. yipster
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    yipster designer

    Michael, thanks for the hint i've got it now, just did not see checklist_12217-3_stability_all_under_6_m.doc (and over 6 meter please also) in .xls format as i had hoped. than again there must be something left for those grey cells up there.;)

    yipster
     
  10. DavidG
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    DavidG Junior Member

    Maybe what I should ask is how long is the boat, and are you a home builder looking to keep the boat for more than 5 years?

    If you intend to keep the boat for this period you may be exempt from the RCD.

    If you need to do the RCD, boats under 12m can use Assessment module Aa, which means they only have to use a notified body for the stability aspect.

    ISO/Dis 12217-3 (I don't have a copy of the EN ISO) only provides for Cat C and D, and can be completed using tests (easier than calculations).

    EN ISO 12217-1:2002 does mention under scope that it can be applied to boats under 6m.

    I would strongly recommend that you get the actual ISO and the ISO checklist as this defines what the numbers are all about.

    If you go down this route, and shop around for a notified body, I would be surprised if it did cost EU 5000.

    Ref. my comment about cowboys, what I meant is that I survey a lot of pre-RCD boats, some of which I wouldn't want to go to sea in.

    Ref. Creativity; There is scope for a designer or builder to inovate outside the scope of the standards, provided that they can justify their approach. Bear in mind that you can use other non ISO standards of even go to first principles (not for stability) to demonstrate compliance.

    Ref. Bureaucrats; The guys that I know, who wrote the standards knew what they are talking about. The guys at the notified bodies who I deal with know what they are talking aboat.

    But remember if you sell your boat, and you misrepresented its seaworthiness to the purchaser by submitting fraudulant data, and the guy sues (or worse his family sue), it will be down to you.
     
  11. Jorgoz
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    Jorgoz Junior Member

    It's only 4.4 meters, to be build in plywood with 3mm wood veneer on deck. As it will be the first one i build i'll start with a small one. I asked the only inspector here in Belgium and he said to just build it and fill out everything myself (easier said than done). I've also been suggsested by someone that if i find a buyer and if he would take the boat on his name, as if he build it himself then there's no paperwork to be filled out. Nice shortcut.

    PS. Yesterday i went to the Dusseldorf Boot 2003 show , and saw Boesch and Pedrazzini runabouts, magnificent boats :cool:

    George
     
  12. Mike D
    Joined: Sep 2002
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    Mike D Senior Member

    It must be spring in Vikland again, look who's getting his longship ready for sea!

    It seems that these difficulties are nothing new.

    There was a newspaper printing error on the right hand side and the comments were illegible so I cleaned them a little.

    Mike D
     

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  13. taniwha
    Joined: Sep 2003
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    taniwha Senior Member

    let's get some order in all this "I've hear from somebody who knew someone who told him that..."
    Design Category D: self certification
    Design Category C under 12 m:self certification
    Design Category C above 12 m:notified body
    Design Category A & B under 12 m:notified body only to check stability
    Design Category A & B above 12 m:notified body


    The spreadsheet you are using are taken from a website of a notified body (not me) these things are to be used in conjunction with the standards. You can find standards at
    for example stability for a boat under 6 m is ISO 12217-3 . Yes those things are expensive but the french do have a cd-rom with ALL the standards, check www.fin.fr .

    And Jorgoz, they are more Belgian Inspectors (I am one of them) , but they are also more notified bodies. If you restrict your websearch to one notified body then you are right. A list of Notofied bodies can be found at www.rsg.be

    I personally have surveyed hunderd of boats but I never restricted anybody's creativity by asking them to proof that the design had sufficient stability. But it is easier to critisize than to try to understand

    The guys who write the standards are volunteers. They ( or the company they are working for) are not paid for participating at the meetings. They must not only pay their travel, expenses, hotels but also a membership fee and many times they must also sacrify a week-end with the family. So if any one is interested in joining what you call the bureaucrates (we are also sailors and watersporters just as you) feel free to participate it is a democracy as you know, it gives you all the freedom to critisize but also to participate

    peter jacops www.ecb.nlecb.nl
     
  14. justa guest

    justa guest Guest

    some legal remarks

    Apparently, it costs EUR 595 (ca. $ 550) for you to get a certificate that certifies that you don't need a full certificate: http://www.imci.org/downloads/Pricelist2004.pdf

    This is probably for the self-builder who who has to prove to the insurance company or some authority that his vessel is certified, or, in this case, is exempt from full certification.

    This is all theory, however. In practice nobody ever asks (yet). The IMCI is predominantly targeted at production boat builders like Benetau and Bavaria, who have gained a bad reputation for sacrificing quality for profit in an ever tighter market. Boats over 12m (40ft) from smaller builders are also regulated, but will usually pass anyway, as these produce quality, usually. The cost for certification as a percentage of the whole for boats this size is in the 1-2% range.

    Self-built boats of the size you're talking about (6m) are on nobody's radar yet. The argument that you have to have a CE-certificate if and when you intend to sell the boat within 5 years are valid. But: Unless you build the boat just to sell it for profit (which makes you a builder and subject to full certification, and rightly so) a gentlemen's agreement with the buyer has to be struck: Put a paragraph in the contract that exempts you from all liability, because it's a private transaction. This is a perfectly legal thing for a private seller to do, and will (legally speaking) heal the defect of your boat not having certification and absolve you from any potnential liability claims. It's about the same situation as with cars. A professional builder is always liable for his product (3 years), and cannot override this burden with a written exemption, even if he tries to put it in the contract.
     

  15. Danielsan
    Joined: Jul 2004
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    Danielsan Amateur designer-builder?

    Dear George,

    As you figured out for yourself, you dont need to have a CE certificate if you are not willing to sell the boat the next 5 years. I know I did the same research as I am also designing/building a boat from scratch. I wanted to be sure I could put that thing on the water. Indeed if you would try so sell it, there would be the backdoor you mentioned and pretend as if it were the buyer that built the boat. It's not the best commercial issue but it works. Insurance for the moment is not a problem neither, you just have to keep a hold on all the time and expences made as the insurance company calculates the price according these information.
    For the legal part of certification etc I'll have a look at home as I got the publication
    of the "Moniteur Belge-Belgisch staatsblad" regarding this topic.

    Greetz,

    Danielsan
     
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