Novel Engine

Discussion in 'Hybrid' started by DaS Energy, Nov 17, 2010.

  1. DaS Energy
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    Location: Gold Coast

    DaS Energy Junior Member

    Thank you for your interest.

    Hello daiquiri,

    Thank you for your patience computers and me should not go near each other.

    Web site California University Hydro electric power generation school. Plus any Hydro turbine site provides all to hydro turbine.

    Both attachments are from the web though dont remember where, think Wikipedia is one and I think and the other from Industrial Gasses website, plus theres one from a Professor which also gives a scale graph.

    Think in Steam then when it comes together convert over to any gas.

    Co2 is refrigerant R774-A.

    Dont know of anything else like it in the world.

    DaS Valve drove micro hydro pelton wheel, using only hot cold gas to force drive water. DaS Valve further developed still standing. Micro hydro turbine generator in use elsewhere.

    Gas/Hydraulic first demonstrated using centrifical pump and Steam in different design to that shown. Gas bubble in U bend in intake pipe forced the water. Steam releasing prior to entry pump entry. Constant water pressure and flow manetaned by pressure pot.

    That drawn is actual full workings. DaS Valve sample model is made PVC pipe and polythene fittings plus a squash ball. Gas force being by compressor.

    Cheers

    Peter







     

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  2. DaS Energy
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    Location: Gold Coast

    DaS Energy Junior Member

    Hello People,

    Hope may be of some help. Build a DaS Valve.

    Two lengths of water pipe 600mm long and 80mm diameter or other such to allow a squash ball easy travel without touching the sides.

    One length water pipe 900mm, same diameter.

    One 600mm horizontal pipe has one 600mm pipe welded in vertical then beside it the 900mm long pipe is welded in verical.

    600mm vertical pipe is capped, and the 900mm vertical pipe at its bottom has a rod or other to stop squash ball falling through into horizontal pipe, but not effect water/gas flow.

    Before cap is welded to 900mm vertical pipe a hole is drilled that squash ball will fit into but not pass through. Hole must not be of such size ball will jam in and so stayed closed when floating water drops.

    Next a 18mm hole is drilled bellow the cap on 600mm and 900mm vertical pipe. To this is attached flexible or solid pipe, which has small length loop under horizontal pipe. If this pipe too short exhaust will open premature, and if to long will not allow full venting and cause gas pocket retention.

    Attach one way valve each end 600mm horizontal pipe. Water in, water out.

    Build fire round base of 600mm vertical pipe. Steam rises and when at surface pushes down on water driving it out.

    Have not yet had pump failer at any pressure.

    Second explosion testing to see when it would stop pumping did it for me!

    No safety valve and pressure applied by taking end of discharge hose further uphill.

    Last worked using Co2 gas which hot vented into water return tank. Cool Co2 returned as gas bubble within inflow of refill water. Needs Less heat.

    Now air compressor driven after finding out Aluminium unlike steel will not take direct flame without bursting pipe.

    Everything learned in making and workings by try it and see, the rest is from what the professionals write.

    Cheers

    Peter
     
  3. Dave Gudeman
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

    Dave Gudeman Senior Member

    Stirling engines

    It sounds like he is talking about low-temperature Stirling engines which have been made with ammonia as the working fluid. The high efficiency of Stirling engines makes them a favorite of various green initiatives and other schemes to scavenge small amounts of power from various sources low-energy sources. I believe there have been successful projects using Sterling engines to scavenge energy from waste heat as Stumble suggests but I don't recall the name of the company. Here are some links that give an idea of what people are trying to do with the technology:

    http://www.cd3wd.com/cd3wd_40/vita/stirling/en/stirling.htm

    http://www.alternative-energy-guide.com/articles/stirling/whispergen_stirling_engine.htm

    http://www.off-grid.net/2007/02/10/stirling-work/

    http://www1.eere.energy.gov/solar/review_meeting/pdfs/prm2008_white_infinia.pdf

    http://www.rgpsystems.com/
     
  4. DaS Energy
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    Location: Gold Coast

    DaS Energy Junior Member

    Stirling Engines

    Hello Dave Gudeman,

    Thank you for your interest, and the Stirling engine sites, I have seen a lot of Stirling engines and am always interested in peoples work with them.

    CSIRO Australia went as far placing one on a small helicopter.

    However the DaS design are not Stirling engine but in fact world unique which is why I placed Open Technology so others could copy.

    Donated to the Australian people December 2007 and slowly being processed by Government.

    Design development started in 2002 as Carbon reduction competition to Carbon capture and burial. Its low heat to high energy output does away with the need for burning Coal.

    Cheers

    Peter
     
  5. CDK
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: Adriatic sea

    CDK retired engineer

    Oh dear, we got ourselves another Kistinie here.

    I entered this thread hoping to finally meet an "idiot savant" here. But found only half of that.....
     
  6. DaS Energy
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    Location: Gold Coast

    DaS Energy Junior Member

    Tsk tsk

    I hoped to meet another genius, pity it wasnt you.

    Cheers

    Peter
     
  7. baeckmo
    Joined: Jun 2009
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    Location: Sweden

    baeckmo Hydrodynamics

    What you are talking about here is a version of what is called a "Wet expansion process", also "Biphase-process". It is normally found operating as a cooling process. You find an example in the thread "New air conditioning process". Like all Thermodynamic cycles, it is principally reversible, and can be operated as a heat pump (=heater/cooler) with mechanical energy as input, or power producing engine with thermal energy as input. The point with it as an engine is that the expander can work with a fluid flow instead of a gas expansion, allowing radically lower tip speeds in the turbine/expander, and a pump instead of a compressor for the pressure increase.

    The process still obeys the basic thermodynamic laws as Daiquiri and CDK correctly have shown. The reason for selecting co2 as a working fluid seems obscure, since it has one of the highest vapour pressures of "normally" available fluids. For a condensing (=cooling) temperature of, say 10 C, the condensor part of the process has to be designed for a working pressure of 45 bars, plus safety margins. That makes for heavy, expensive and inefficcient heat exchanging surfaces. Co2 is normally used for very low temperatures, say between -30 < -80 C, where the pressures in the phase changing regions are acceptable.

    Normally you would select the working fluid to have its condensing pressure close to, or slightly above atmospheric in order to have a low resistance to heat flow, and still not worrying about all the problems with air leaking into the process.

    Your statement that co2 gas can't be compressed into fluid, no matter what, is wrong. It goes through tree states like all other matter; solid (when frozen), liquid and gas, all depending on the prevailing combination of pressure/temperature. And like all other fluids, it has a critical point (for co2 it is ~32 C and ~74 bar), beyond which the gas and fluid states have identical properties.

    Thermodynamic processes designed for this operating range are often called "Supercritical", and depending on the medium behaviour when expanding from its superheated ("dry") vapour state, the expanding fluid may get "wetter" (=containing condensed droplets, like water) or it may get "dryer" like some of the Freons. This behaviour has a big impact on the design of the system, including the turbine itself.

    The figures you are referring to are nonsense, probably cited from some of the Alchemist sites, but the wet expansion process is for real, including its coherence to the Thermodynamic Laws.

    Btw, what you have described in note #17 is the pulse flow "Putt-putt" steam engine, found in the toy boats CDK and I had half a century ago, when we were kids (ok, speaking for myself, still a kid in mind......), but don't stop that from donating to your government, it might turn Aussie heads upside down........... The pulse flow engine is equal to the old Lenoir process when it comes to the process values.
     
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  8. Dave Gudeman
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

    Dave Gudeman Senior Member

    You mean right side up? Because obviously right now they are all walking around upside down.

    Thanks for the info. I didn't know there were actual real-life engines (as opposed to refrigeration devices) that used thermodynamic cycles with phase changes. I'll probably waste a day reading about this cycle on the internet now.
     
  9. baeckmo
    Joined: Jun 2009
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    Location: Sweden

    baeckmo Hydrodynamics

    Do I really have to write everything explicitly; my point is to stimulate your synapses to make new associations on their own?
     
  10. DaS Energy
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    Location: Gold Coast

    DaS Energy Junior Member

    Co2 Behaviour

    Hello baeckmo.

    First paragraph no problems.

    Second paragraph. Cooling principal is correct see "Einstein" however base pressure is 74 bar and rises to 10,000 bar. Pump has duel purpose firstly it pumps water to the hydro turbine and discharge pressure from the turbine at below 74 bar creates the compressor.

    Third paragraph. Co2 was chosen specificaly for its high pressure to heat and wonderfull ability of converting to Dry-Ice -40*C upon pressure release thereby reducing surface cooling area. NASA and others have no problems with the pressures and modern metals are sufficiently liight enough. NASA Co2heat pump may be better reference to things than air conditioners.

    Fourth paragraph. This may be true for things of the past but now in the space age things have changed.

    Fith paragraph. Please supply supposed quote "Your statement that co2 gas can't be compressed into fluid, no matter what" closer reading may reveal cannot be compressed into a liquid at temperature beyound 32* Celsius.

    Sixth paragraph appears to refer to other thing doing different thing to that DaS developed.

    Seventh paragraph. Thanks for the laugh. NASA, Gas Industry and Universities are now well and truly put in their place.

    Eigth paragraph. Using steam its an old put-put form engaged in piston action only. The purpose of the pressure pot is to take away piston driven crankshaft from the put-put and produce turbine rotation. No more put-put.

    Ninth paragraph. Wrongly clings to the notion its a version of the put-put engine.

    Not mentioned by I prior is heat loss at cooling is directly absorbed into heating process. Maybe not perfect Carnott but closet yet.

    Further assistance is available on the internet under cryogenics, hydro turbine and Co2 phase graphs.

    When comparing something Novel to something different that already exist can be unhelpfull. Take the Wright Brothers for instance everything needed existed in different form yet their aircraft resemble nothing previosly known to man.

    Nice to know we both still have a childs mind. It was child Stevens playing in his mothers kitchen that brought the steam engine to life.

    Cheers

    Peter



     
  11. DaS Energy
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    Location: Gold Coast

    DaS Energy Junior Member

    Internet reference

    Hello Dave Gudeman,

    Search under ammonia engines, there is a Professor who researched the engines back through time. Ammonia Street Cars (trams) 18th Centruary has many good example.

    Sorry so long ago and too many computer losses to have the exact site any more.

    Also see "Eistein" Ammonia absorption fridge. Note high pressure gas pipe line going to restrictor orifice. Orifice pupose is to reduce the prssure entering the expansion chamber. Replace with turbine as it will reduce the pressure going into expansion chamber and further makes use of the energy stripped off by the restrictor orifice.

    This being the beginining of that now developed known as the gas/hydraulic turbine

    Cheers

    Peter



     
  12. DaS Energy
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    Location: Gold Coast

    DaS Energy Junior Member

    Hello baeckmo,

    Sums it up for me too, to all. "Do I really have to write everything explicitly; my point is to stimulate your synapses to make new associations on their own"

    Cheers

    Peter




     

  13. DaS Energy
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    Location: Gold Coast

    DaS Energy Junior Member

    Low pressure Co2

    Hello baeckmo,

    My appologies. I left out the same principal of working applies to Co2 at lower temperature. One does not have to go to 100*C 10,000 bar pressure. That temperature pressure is highest known to which commercial manufactue internet, current can make to.

    Co2 efficiency is best at temperatures above 32* Celsius where the temperature cline produces greater pressure.

    A litre per second Co2 flow (60 RPM) at 74 bar produces 5,920 watts. At 600RPM its 59,200 watts. At 6,000 RPM its 592,000 watts. 6,000 RPM in fact is quite slow for a turbine.

    Cheers

    Peter
     
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