Not another one!!

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by Welder4956, Dec 28, 2008.

  1. Dudley Dix
    Joined: Sep 2005
    Posts: 69
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    Location: Virginia

    Dudley Dix Designer

    Please don't invite me to sail offshore with you in this boat that you have learned to design in a week. There are various books that explain how to design boats but you will not have acquired the depth of feeling for hull shaping to suit the ocean, which comes from years of sailing, designing and experiencing the results of those designs and the decisions that were taken all through the design process. Without that experience you have no certainty whether it is a good or bad boat that you are producing.

    Yes, there have been good boats designed by amateurs but I doubt that you will find many that were designed by anybody with such brief self-education. The successful ones have mostly designed their boats upon a basis of years of sailing and observing/analysing boats.

    Jim, design your boat, including the structural design, interior layout, joinery detailing, ballasting, rig, hardware layout etc. Detail it properly so that others can build it while knowing what is in your head, rather than you having minimal info on paper and designing on the back of a cigarette box as you build. That will show you what effort goes into a decent design. After that, build the boat and take it on an offshore passage to prove it. That is when you will learn whether or not the boat is worth the time and materials that you have put into it. If you have not had the required depth of knowledge at the start of the process, you may find that you have lost most of the value of your investment.

    Whoosh, you have just strengthened the argument for building upside down.

    I have turned all of my hulls with tackle but they were all built from wood, so quite light. Metal boats to my designs have been turned by the spitroast, hoop and other methods without cranes.
     
  2. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    I used to build my powerboats to 10m upside down, simple trailer inboards with large cokpits
    when you move into bigger boats the deck should go on first
    i often have people doing woodwork up forewards before the aft parts are finished welding
    So may more men can get on with their respective disciplines right way up. The first 80 footer New Plymouth Eng did was upside down, as was the 90 of alloy yachts, that was the last ever
    I am NeVER Going to get you to change, you simply will never see it. and I think the right way up scares you?
    However I agree, with the point you made, abt designing a boat is a week, nonsense
    I do not design hulls I leave it to trained navel architects, I do the structure and eng and electrical
    I work with the architect to achieve what we both think is best
    For instance on this one, the architect placed the traveller over the cockpit entrance!! blocking access to all but the young nimble, so I designed the arch, it works beautifully
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2010
  3. Dudley Dix
    Joined: Sep 2005
    Posts: 69
    Likes: 10, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 70
    Location: Virginia

    Dudley Dix Designer

    Whoosh, how do I get this into your head? I am not against people building right way up. I design the boats. The builders build them right way up or inverted to suit themselves. The fact that the builders mostly choose of their own accord to build upside down says something about their beliefs but not about mine. I say "mostly" but it is probably more accurate to say "all", I am not aware of any who have built my metal designs right way up.

    You will not be happy until I say that right way up is better. That is not going to happen. Let each man choose for himself.
     
  4. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
    Posts: 1,260
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    Location: South Africa

    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    been there, done that and got a T shirt;)

    Whoosh, I turned a Dix 43 with chain block tackle only without the luxury of overhead steel trussed to work from due to the flimsy smallish lip channel truss construction. The tackle was attached to the uprights of the building both sides of the boat and turned her over without a scratch. I attach a few photos showing that turn over.
    If you look at the time lapse on the photographs you will see that from the lift started until upright took just 2 hours flat. But, take note - the lift was halted midway for photo sessions, some serious discussion with Mr Chivas to calm the nerves etc. Actual time taken for complete turn over about 1.5 hours.
    BTW, this boat displaces close to 15 tons...
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    tee hee, hello Wynand from your old mate, I,m a bit bored whose gor something for me to bild?
    truce Dudley
     
  6. Welder4956
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 16
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 29
    Location: Tauranga

    Welder4956 Junior Member

    Gentlemen thank you. I went away for a week with the family and have come back to quite a catch up.

    Before i go any further i would just like to thank Jim for his suggestion but kindly decline. I am Mechanical engineer with both trade certified apprentice training and a Bachelor degree in Mech engineering. I have no misguided feeling that i am going to design a boat that will carry myself and my family through waters unknown, with 1 weeks training and a book. Sorry jim but i'm just not going there.

    Dudley...I am pleased that you have an input on this forum and are ready to answer any questions that may be put to you. I will in the fullness of time contact you regarding the project that you have some insight to from this forum.

    Being "Joe the welder" some of the trade terms and definitions took some serious Google and book research but i think i have a grasp of what people are trying to say.

    I have had a look at some designs and have been talking to many boat builders and owners. Living where i do there are some well place drinking holes frequented by such people.

    So if i give you a run down on what i have come to so far we can tear it to pieces.

    It will be steel.
    It will be 60' at least.
    It will be round hull.

    Now i know the last statement sent sputtering around the room as an amateur builder taking on a round hull is foolery. I am anything but amateur steel worker. I give you gentlemen due credit in your fields kindly do the same with mine.

    The cost of the design is to an extent an issue but as an engineer i would like the best plans possible for a reasonable price. I am not the sultan of Brunei and as such chartering a designer from far away is not my aim. I am not worried about resale value that will be my kids problem, but I am concerned when it comes to getting the vessel surveyed for insurance and other such events.

    I have heard many bad stories of Roberts design from all the boat builders in the area i went. I will not be looking Roberts. Ganley on the other hand got rave reviews and is a strong contender. Kiwis back him strongly. But like i say i am still looking. I will work this as any other contract i run. All options considered then price to quality. There is nothing more valuable to me than my family's lives and that is what is at stake if the design is not right.

    Upside down or right way up? I like the idea of building from the bottom up but can see advantages to upside down. Not keen on welding it upside down, nice gas trap really. Not decided mighty be just a couple of fans to sort that out will make many other thing easier.

    I have bought Colvins book on steel boat building and although some of the methods are a little dated by todays standards the principles are good reading. I have only read Vol1 so give me a chance.

    Excellent gents i think i have waffled on enough.

    Happy new year to you all.

    Matt
     
  7. rasorinc
    Joined: Nov 2007
    Posts: 1,854
    Likes: 71, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 896
    Location: OREGON

    rasorinc Senior Member

    On my posting I sent you building pictures. Another member chimed in that he has just cut out his steel hull--the same boat that I sent you the link on. The best advise I can offer is to contact these 2 individuals and have a dialog. They have and are building the same steel boat. Their wisdom I would think is invaluable and I know they would share their experiences. I am a Wood man and have built many boats but my knowledge is close to zero re: steel. I wish you all the success in the world, building your own is a great accomplishment and you will treasure the experience forever. Have fun and good luck. Stan
     
  8. Wittholz 35
    Joined: Feb 2008
    Posts: 12
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 24
    Location: Redwood City Ca USA

    Wittholz 35 Junior Member

    VanDeStadt Plans

    I used to own a VanDeStadt 34' in steel built by Doug Knight a contributor to the book Steel Away. In talking to Doug about building the boat he said that the plans were excellent. I know that the end result was an awesome sailing boat. I have the plans if you would like me to send you some pictures of them to get an idea of what to expect from VanDeStadt.
     
  9. Welder4956
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 16
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 29
    Location: Tauranga

    Welder4956 Junior Member

    Thanks Stan. I will pester people no end shortly.
     
  10. ecflyer
    Joined: Jan 2009
    Posts: 81
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 72
    Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin

    ecflyer Junior Member

    I am building a Roberts 434 in wood (cold molded) and I have never built a boat before. I found no mistakes in the plans and found them to be as detailed as I need them. I simply cannot understand all the bad press on Bruce Roberts. When ever I have had questions he has be avaiable to answer them within 24 hours. I have a friend Graham in Australia that is also building a Roberts 37 and he has not encountered any problems either. He does boat repairs for a living so is very much familiar with how boats are built.
    I have never been on a sailboat, so I had to attend the Chicago sailboat show to get some idea how they are suposed to look when completed. Being a complete novice, I had to acquire over 50 boat building books in my library. After 2.3 years of construction time, I have completed the boat hull, deck, stern, pilothouse,keel, sole and interior partitions. I am now installing the 88 hp Yanmar engine and drive line. I have nothing but good to say about Bruce and so does my friend Graham. You people really confuse me!

    Have a Spiffy Good Day !
    ecflyer
     
  11. ecflyer
    Joined: Jan 2009
    Posts: 81
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 72
    Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin

    ecflyer Junior Member

    I forgot to mention that I have another friend Lee Patterson who built a 42' Roberts trawler 20 years ago in steel. He also recommends Bruce Roberts whole heartdly. He say's Bruce is absolutely a great guy. My wood design is incredibly strong. I pounded on the deck in some places with a 2# hamer and it sounded like I was pounding on concrete or rock. His designs are incredibly strong.

    G'Day Mate!
    ecflyer
     
  12. Welder4956
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 16
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    Location: Tauranga

    Welder4956 Junior Member

    As i have neither owned, built nor sailed a Roberts i can not hand on heart give you an experienced answer. I can tell you what i have heard from some 10 to 15 boat builders.

    Roberts produce "nice" boats but they are apparently unstable. The drawings are old and as such new technology and smoother lines are not employed. Now i have e-mailed the Australia branch and i will admit i found the response speedy and informative.

    Bruce Roberts design have had some bad press, which from what i can see is mostly self inflicted. With people being told they have black listed boats and unregistered drawings. I see Roberts as a potential minefield from this perspective.

    I was inquiring about steel hulls and big ones at that when i did my research i have had no imput from anyone about the wooden or smaller vessels and i would hope this thread does not turn into an attack on boat designs. I have to say the information i have had through this thread has been of the highest quality and as much open minded. No body has come on and said i must use this guy and not the other guy and i have narrowed my list to 4 designers. Although i feel 1 may not be able to provide the plans for the vessel i want.

    I am absolutly certain that what you are building ecflyer will be as magnificent as you have hoped and the time and care you have put into it will pay off. Don't let what other people say confuse or deter your mood in any way. I would be very interested in knowing why you chose the Roberts design over the many others available to you? It would help in my search.

    Thanks guys for the help and continued support.

    Matt
     
  13. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
    Posts: 2,308
    Likes: 192, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 2281
    Location: Flattop Islands

    Tad Boat Designer

    ec is to be congratulated on building his boat, may she treat him well! No attacks just trying for honest opinion here. ec mentioned he is inexperienced, (that's allowed) and found no mistakes, good.... but an experienced eye may have a different opinion.

    So I was thinking about this project over the Holidays and thought I'd see what could be done in the way of a modern cruiser (ketch) with a (2.5' constant) radius chine. Below is the result so far....66' LOA, 53'8" LWL, 18'6" beam, draft 7'6", displacement around 90,000 pounds.

    66ketchrc.jpg
     
  14. Welder4956
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 16
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    Location: Tauranga

    Welder4956 Junior Member

    Tad thats a nice looking design. I was wondering the diffrence for short handed sailing with a single mast over the two you are showing on this design. I am definatly sold on having a central cockpit to allow lounging room on deck behind. I am also keen on a swim platform.

    Have asked for study plans from Van de stadt and ganley. I have emailed graham Radford to see if he has something matching my ideas but have not been able to find study plans on DD web site. If he reads this before I can e-mail him I am seriously looking at the Dix 65 as a contender.

    After a long discusion with a salty sea dog at Tauranga marina today while he showed me around his 55' Ganley design that steel is the way forward. For many reasons it is a beter and easier to maintain material.

    Keep it flowing gents this has been invaluable.

    Matt
     

  15. ecflyer
    Joined: Jan 2009
    Posts: 81
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    Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin

    ecflyer Junior Member

    Welder 4956, you would like to know how I decided upon a Roberts designed yacht. Before I can answer that, I need to give you a little background info on myself. I am a retired building contractor and as such have many years experience working with building architects. Navel architects are quite similar in almost every way. So after finding a design I liked, I sent for the introductory plans (which are not to scale), but in all other ways are exact. I found the plans to be very detailed so I purchased them. Now I admit that I probably do not need the detail of explaination that most amatures would need. As an example: I have increased the length of the boat by 7% which is 48". I have increased the size of many of the framing members and stringers. I am not an engineer, but do know structural strengths, stresses and strains. I have increased the over all strength of Robert's design with minimual increase in weight. My ultimate goal is not to go sailing, but my enjoyment comes from the building process. I am retired and this is my hobby. At the end of the day, I will have created a masterpiece that will put factory produced boats to shame. I had talked to a fella that had built a Roberts 434 out of steel and he sailed it around the world in 228 days. He said he often exceeded hull speed at 9 & 10 Knots w/o current assistance. He sold that boat and planned to build another Roberts design only larger. I have been a life long member of the experimental aircraft assoc and credit much of my engineering knowledge to them. I may be an amature boat builder but a very experienced builder of many things. I don't think anyone should start building a boat unless they have experience in some aspect of the build process. But then again, if one does not know how to perform a certain build task, then get a book and learn or ask someone. What is so difficult about that? I think building a boat is easy and fun but occaisionally requires a little foul language. Welder, you come across as a very educated person and my gut feeling is that you do not need the level of detail that a rank amature would need on the plans. Why spend $10,000 on plans when you can get what you need for $800. If you think the stability of a Roberts design is lacking then increase it. Build your steel hull and go with a wood deck. Place extra tankage and all tankage under the sole. Maybe add some lead at the bottom of the keel just to lower the center of gravity. Maybe reduce the height of the mast and add a bow sprit to make up for the lost sail area. If your an engineer, you can recalculate the center of effort of the sail area to ensure the weather helm remains constant. For the small price of approx $125 you can get introductory plans from Roberts and can see for yourself if they are up to your needs. Why rely on someone else's opinion? By the way, the Roberts plans sold out of Australia are stolen and incomplete w/o the latest drawing additions. Bruce lives in Spain. I wonder if some of your friends with poor experiences on the Roberts plans have gotten involved with the incomplete plans out of Australia? Good luck in your endevor!

    G'Day Mate
    ecflyer
     
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