Not another one!!

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by Welder4956, Dec 28, 2008.

  1. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    I agree Wynand

    Also, I think one of the key factors to look for in any offshore yacht designer is time offshore. Many designers have no experience of blue water cruising and It shows both in their designs and their design philosophy.

    Experience teaches many aspects of practical design. Building and maintaining your own steel boat teaches you even more. In the shipbuilding arena you quickly learn to design so as to keep the welders onside. One thing I found with many plans for small leisure vessels was designs with no access whatsoever for a MIG gun in many places , and no welding schedule .

    Many of the older steel designs were quite poor in many respects. Often only one vessel was built and I have seen some serious miscalculations.

    Modern design methods are more reliable and it is much easier these days to accurately predict vessel trim, immersion, stability, performance and seakeeping using the computer based naval architecture tools we have.

    There are many large vessels that are one-offs, providing the designer properly knows their trade the vessel characteristics can be designed to from scratch. Any proper professional should be able to design a reasonably conventional vessel to basic specifications with ease first time.

    Where I see designers coming unstuck these days is more often with light displacement craft for a variety of reasons.

    In Australia we seldom see Dudly Dix designs, Australias equivalent was Joe Adams with his performance cruisers, Pugh is very common too in the larger boat market. Both have retired. Ganly and Mason have also gone on.

    The Van De Stadt plans are, and always have been considerably more professional than Roberts and more easily made compliant to survey and scantling requiremnts.

    cheers :)
  2. Dudley Dix
    Joined: Sep 2005
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    Location: Virginia

    Dudley Dix Designer

    Boat design quality

    Thank you to the members who have commented in favour of my designs. It is not for me to comment much about the quality of information supplied by other designers except to say that it does vary greatly. I can give you background info about me and my designs and comment about some of the statements in preceding posts on this thread.

    Plan prices do cover a wide range and it is only reasonable to expect quality to be related in some way to the price that you pay, nomatter what it is that you buy. My prices are not the lowest but they are also far from the highest. I recently exchanged emails with a foreign client who has previously built one of my designs and wanted to commission a new design. I could not fit in the work. He bought a design from another designer then contacted me again to ask again if I could draw a boat for him. He said that the price paid to the other designer was many times my fee and he had received minimal information.

    Consider that the price for the plans is a tiny fraction of the total amount that you will pay out while building the boat. If you start with the wrong design, for whatever the reason, the rest of the money is immediately devalued by the error. You will lose far more than you have paid for the plans, whether they were priced high or low. A plan price of $6000 on a 65ft boat is 1-2% of the material cost of that boat. Why would anyone risk the outcome of a big investment project like a 65ft boat, in order to reduce the cost by 1%?

    My origins in boat design come from the point of view of an amateur builder. The only design that I have built from another designer was to the van de Stadt 30ft Zeester, in the 1970s. It was while building that boat that I started my yacht design studies. The van de Stadt detailing was excellent and set the standard to which I have always worked with my designs that we sell to amateur builders. I have built my own designs from 8ft to 38ft and sailed many thousands of miles on protected and open ocean waters, almost exclusively on my own designs. I have crossed the South Atlantic 4 times on my own designs. I have sailed for 55 years and surfed for 45 years. I have been around and on the water my whole life.

    All of my metal designs were commissioned as custom designs by clients. After that they have become part of our stock design catalogue. All have been built and are sailing. Most have been built by amateur builders.

    Everyone on this earth makes mistakes. Anyone who says that he does not make mistakes is not being honest with himself nor anyone else. I still have occasional dimension errors pointed out to me in designs that have been built by 30 or 40 builders in the past, without anyone pointing out the error. When errors are pointed out I correct them on the drawings.

    Don't believe that computers eliminate errors. They reduce the amount of button pushing so finger trouble is less likely. Finger trouble with a computer also creates errors. Computers do make it quicker to do calculation tasks, so it is possible to draw a bad design more quickly just as it is possible to draw a good design more quickly.

    CAD is essentially only a drafting tool. It is faster than hand-drafting in some respects and way slower in other respects. Overall, I know that a design takes me longer if designed in CAD than by hand. The benefit of CAD is that it sets up the design to be suitable for many other computer related design features, like CNC cutting of parts, accurate printing of full size patterns, preparation of 3D perspective views before building etc.

    Despite the benefits available from CAD designs, I estimate that 80-85% of the plans that we sell are for building from scratch, with the builders wanting neither full-size patterns nor CNC kits. We offer full size patterns for most of our designs to those who want to go that route. Most choose to do it all for themselves, each for his own reasons.

    The internet is great because there is a wealth of info available but as much as there is a mass of good info, there is also much put out as truth that is far from it. Some of the loudest opinions are from people who spend their time giving advice about all sorts of practical issues rather than actually practising the things about which they give advice. Be sure that the advice that you take is from someone who really knows the subject from personal experience.

    In the end, you and your crew will have to live with your design choices. Whether you build a design from my catalogue or someone else's, be sure that your choice is for the right reasons.
  3. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    i tried to get your correct mail, I dont wish either to sell you a plan or build you a boat,
    But 5 years ago I started a book, here is a rough draft of the first few lines in chapter one.Nice post by D Dix we disagree only on one thing, take a look at the gallery of lazeyjack see how a build can be set up to build quicker, then may pay to go to look at this boat in pic in Kumeu, I consider this small yard to be the best builder of metal I have seen anywhere in the world, and I have been all over Bos and carr, they do have a website in NZ and Wynard is correct abt the pattern stuff, patterns are for dressmakers and you will need draw parts of the boat, body plan, stem and cl bars full size on loft anyways, wont go into that here though
    the book also covers building in metal without stringers in the main, from stretching forming to how to build your own gear, with big chapter on machines and welding from many years hands on experience
    You are welcome to it for free, as I wont be finishing it
    Chapter ONE the design

    Maxim number one, it is as easy and costs no more to build a stunning yacht with sweet lines as it is to build an ugly dog of a yacht.
    Did you know that to build a true round bilge yacht would only take 200 hours more than a chine yacht? 45-55 ft. Of coarse one will need to invest in a little more equipment, but at the end, the yacht will be a pleasure to look at, will be admired by all and will be worth 2 or 3 times what your chine OR unamed design \might fetch if built to a very high standard
    My advise is to learn to understand the lines, never ever attempt to simplify the compound curves in a design, this seems to happen only in Australia where the marinas are full of the most ugly dreadful creations, not all of them home built I might add.

    Most everyone will have an idea of his dream boat, in his head; chances are it has been there for a long time, in my case with my first serious cruiser it was. In hindsight it was the dead wrong thing to do. And here is why.
    When a designer is chosen he should be chosen not from sentiment, in other words all of his boats have tan sails, and are yawls or ketches, and have long overhangs and long keels and turned posts in the salon. If you do this, you have a boat that hardly anybody wants, that goes to windward like a pig, if at all, that is slow down wind because she has that short waterline, and because she makes lots of leeway, maybe because of her keel. But worst of all when you come to sell her, she will not fetch much, she will have cost more to build because more than likely her displacement will be greater than modern types, and displacement cost money. Bigger rig to push her, bigger gear to handle the sails, bigger engine, more fuel, the list goes on and on, and here don’t get me wrong, you can still have volume in a boat, still have the room, without the weight. Of course there are some beautiful replicas and look alike still being built, but times move on, and by and large one is better of with the long waterline light/medium displacement yachts of today. Today’s yacht is not evolving much, at least in the underwater style, which seems to have really stabilized
    You can have a 43 boat that weighs in at thirty tons and a 60-foot boat that weighs in at 26 tons
    Now which would you prefer, one sails to windward at 2 knots, one sails at 8 knots, one takes forever to get there, gets trapped in bad weather systems, spend twice as long at sea and is a dog to sail, the other powers away, is a pleasure to sail, is lively vibrant looks a million

    So how do you pick a designer, architect?
    I have always put them into brackets
    Does not earn main part of his/her living from designing Sometimes can, design lovely yachts, after all, Farr was once an amateur, these people can have a feel for a good boat, they may be serious racing people with a wealth of wins on the water and have drawn themselves a boat. Sometimes one can get a good set of lines from such a person, but you wont get a construction drawing, you wont get engineering input into the calcs and above all you will not get A NAME.
    Professional Amateur
    This is the worst ever scenario, you have a guy who sells lots of plans, they are usually of chine yachts, but not always, he has no qualifications and 99 per cent of the time the whole thing ends up a disaster, some of the things that can and do happen are, boat trims by the bow, that is she is down by the bow, this looks bad, worst still she floats with her boot topping a foot under the water, it happens, it happened in Auckland to an early superyacht, down 18 ins by the bow, there were 5 tonnes piles of lead all over the deck as they tried to figure out what to do!! Of coarse the architect blamed the builder, but I know he was just ducking for cover,
    Other common scenarios are, bad sheer lines, bad sailing ability, e.g. weather helm, poor performance. Poor engineering design that is the structural, engineering, and all manner of other faults. Fortunally these designers shy from alloy, most likely they are banging out steel boat plans. Stay right away from them, the cheap initial cost of the plans will seem like peanuts when you try to fix the mistakes and when you come to resell.

    Amateur Professional

    Difference from above, he may not seek the major part of his living from yacht design, but have a love of the subject and maybe highly qualified in a related subject like mechanical engineering, architecture of buildings chances are you will get a good workable design here

    Lastly the professional, professional
    The p.p. designs full time, his yachts are known worldwide and the fees are what you would expect, high for someone who needs to work to a budget
    What you should get is a design completed from start to finish. That includes, all working drawings, sailplans, keel plans, ballast arrangements, layout, furniture, stability calcs, which have become very important, especially for yachts that go offshore, or race, are intended for sale overseas, into the EC. In return for this, if the yacht is well built, you will more than likely find her easy to sell, easy to sail, easy to build. For a true international NAME expect to pay 100000 US dollars for 55 footer in 2002 money.
    But there are people who are very very well regarded who can and do design for a quarter of this, say in NZ OR Australia. Some of the French designers, very experienced in metal fall into this category. I once asked one of the top superyacht design offices if I could design my own structure, as this is what I normally do, and they were willing to let me do this, firms like Dubois, Farr, Frers, are all very approachable and will speak to you and sometimes advise you. There are many very good architects and access to these people through the net has made searching for your ideal so much easier
    Within the professional area, there are qualified navel architects and those that have no letters after their name, usually called yacht designers

    A good plan is to ask the office to supply names and contact numbers of people they have designed for, don’t stop at this, ask around, dig into each and every corner, after all you are about to shovel anything up to a million dollars of your hard earned, into a sailboat

    I cannot reinforce this section on design enough; I have met so many broken hearted and broken pocketed folk that have gone the cheap way.
    Often this results in legal action, in some countries, if threatened by legal action, the designer simply winds up his company and starts again under a fresh name, simple, and until the law changes to allow one to pursue such people, its buyer beware.
    When contracting to buy a design, that is to have someone draw up a boat design, it is a good idea to put all of ones verbalizing into a written contract with the designer. Then both parties know exactly what to expect.

    . A minimum would be
    Lines and offsets, never, ever, accept lines or templates without offsets, even if they are computer offsets or offsets (called) off a hand drawn. plan.
    The reason some designers do not want to release these offsets is because they think you may sell them on. Never take no for an answer, insist.
    Some firms are churning out kitset plans, that is with cut files, even with these people you must insist that you receive the lines and the offsets

    If they will not supply then go elsewhere.
    Stability calcs, without which you cannot take the boat to charter or sell into Europe and without which you will ever be sure, will she right or not
    as you can see I ended the paste here
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2010
  4. Dudley Dix
    Joined: Sep 2005
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    Dudley Dix Designer

    There are strong opinions expressed in the post by Whoosh but strong opinion tends to close the mind to all other valid options. It also can lead astray those who do not have the experience to question the opinions. I believe in keeping an open mind.

    I have viewed the gallery of lazyjack and visited the website of Bos & Carr. I see a very competent builder that is capable of producing quality work, probably competitive with quality boatbuilders elsewhere. Their technology does not look much different from what is used by many other yards.

    I see that they use stringerless construction, transverse framed. There is nothing wrong with stringered (longitudinally framed) construction and it is preferred by the ABS yacht rules. It is normally easier and quicker for an amateur to build a fair hull with stringers.

    A versatile designer can draw a successful boat to a wide range of concepts. What is pretty to one person is ugly to another. The Maine schooners cannot be described as modern by any standards but they are beautiful, they sail well and they are seaworthy. You are unlikely to get the lovers of these boats to go for modern hulls and there is nothing wrong with the concepts that they do like. There are sometimes valid reasons to design (or want) a boat outside of the modern norm.

    I am not sure where Whoosh fits me into his design categories. For the record, I design lots of boats for amateur builders but I make my living 100% from designing boats and I don't charge $100K for a 55ft design. What is wrong with buying a stock design drawn by a competent designer? We all market our services and products in the way that we see as best for us.

    Most of our designs are built from offsets. Those who choose to build from patterns have the offsets in their plan packages anyway. However, there are times when building from offsets is impractical so they are superfluous. Our lapstrake designs are all supplied with bulkhead patterns as part of the stock plan package because converting offsets into a properly shaped lapstrake hull is awkward. It is easier for the amateur to do so from patterns. If a builder asks me for lapstrake offsets I will not provide them. I have not even prepared a set for my own use and the builder certainly has no need for them. Like I said at the start, strong opinions close the mind to valid alternatives.

    Stability data must be available and should be supplied if requested. However, they are theoretical and must be validated with inclining tests. Designers make assumptions on hundreds of issues when preparing weight schedules on which hydrostatic and stability info is based. They can be considered only as educated estimates. Differences in methods by different builders will change the displacement and VCG, so the inclining test is the only way to ensure accuracy for CE certification.
  5. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    to DD
    I have no opinions of your designs or yourself, from my exp talking to others, you do a fine job
    i have built on both stringers(power) girdars and tranverse frames alone
    I would not pay 100000 for a design, BUT I have seen a lot of rubbish produced by some prolific sellers, and quite obviously I can not name here
    I merely say beware Do your homework, same as if you were picking a builder.
    i talked to you once and your mind was completely closed to building right side up, so there I found a strong opinion which was inflexible:))
    And believe me it is easier right side up, not to mention so much cheaper and faster, saving on cranage alone may run into thousands on a big hull, you were also inflexible on this
    Yes I have strong opinions, but I also have an open mind and at 62 years of age it is still open
    CAD, well it takes over a lot of what we used do on the loft, so unless one is careful, the owner may pay a lot more for a custom design, I know just how long CAD takes, and the cost of cut files to cut all componants is very high, on that steel boat you see above was in order 50k, and she has dutch flats as framing
    For another opinion on Bos and Carr ask Dashew they did a couple of hulls for him, alloy fully framed up
    have a fine sleep over there, oh I thought you were S.A, but I see you are from USA
  6. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    here is a rhino 4 file of some sections I have had done in alloy the face of the belting is 16mm, I can supply at a good rate need pay for dies, can you use em, the rail cap is solid, so tapping heavy screws for fitting make s life simple
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2010
  7. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    Words of wisdom Woosh.

    I don’t agree with Dudly about computers and I have some issues with the lack of engineering in the correspondence courses that provide diplomas and certificates in boat design. ( I must say I’m not including Dudly in this critique) but people looking for a design can protect themselves.

    In the hands of a professional the computer is invaluable and it reduces the design spiral time and cost by orders of magnitude and it is now considerably more than a drafting tool. The computer can tell you a considerable amount about your proposed hullform early in the design stage providing you have the background to understand that analysis.

    Important target coefficients can be instantly checked and the hull can even be transformed to a target coefficient in some packages. For a sailboat you can heel the hull and check the coefficients and waterlines instantly. We can predict with reasonably high accuracy just how a conventional hull will behave with a database of existing vessels that have refined our predictions. A one-off hull from a professional using the computer as an analysis tool is going to be a safe bet unless you are after the last 2% of a performance ULDB racing machine. Or unless they have not actually designed the boat completely and you build the hull at the start of the design spiral. (I've just seen this in a big catamaran)
    As for errors; for the builder there is no longer error in offset tables so rife under hand methods. Properly set up spreadsheets have removed the weights and moments errors that used to plague the design office and be blamed on the builder when the boat trimmed so badly.

    After the old methods, what-if scenarios using the PC are so easy as to still give me pleasure even after using them for 8 years. For example Curves of stability with free surface and tank placement, I can run 5 different configurations and check downflooding angles within an hour. In the past it took a day for each and there would be an error margin. I can change displacement, instantly check freeboard and produce curves of stability in minutes.

    Old rules of thumb and ready reckoners have been replaced with decent naval architecture programs to the advantage of all.

    These days with the naval architecture tools you will get a good conventinal hullform every time provided the designer does the job with due dilligence.

    Whether it's structurally adequate might be another issue that depends on the designers and their training. The clients can protect themselves from structural design errors by using a scantling society inspection of both plans and construction.

    Although some people might get hot under the collar about scantling society requirements it remains a very good quality assurance program for the hull to be built to and construction supervised by one of the societies. Not just a claim from the designer that it complies with a scantling society.

    Engineers/NA's can submit specific design calcs to the scantling societies which replace the scantling rules.
    Ted brewer and Van De Stadt both hired engineers, Roberts didn’t initially and I think it showed in his designs particulalry when people tried to get them into survey, that's where John Pugh picked up all the bigger sail boats in Australia for survey work since he was a marine eng himself.

    On Chines

    Woosh mentioned people banging out chined hulls and I'll comment on this since the most demanding designs are chined hullforms for sailboats as I have found.

    To many chined hulls come from designers who simply convert a round bilge design to a conveniently placed chine with no thought to flow paths or induced turbulence. Interestingly properly placed chines can even be beneficial in reducing resistance but require more design work and like bulbs it is out of any computer design programs ability. Then you have to sketch the initial lines by hand and conduct model tests for a good result (even CFD is not up the job ). On a properly designed chined hull the chine dictates the hullform . A radiused chine is then a valid option but beware of initial round bilge designs that are simply chined. Radius chine ameliorates a poor chine placement as it reduces the turbulence of cross chine flow.
    To many chined hulls come from designers who simply convert a round bilge design to a conveniently placed chine with no thought to flow paths or induced turbulence. Interestingly properly placed chines can even be beneficial in reducing resistance but require more design work and like bulbs it is out of any computer design programs ability. Then you have to sketch the initial lines by hand and conduct model tests for a good result (even CFD is not up the job ). On a properly designed chined hull the chine dictates the hullform . A radiused chine is then a valid option but beware of initial round bilge designs that are simply chined. Radius chine ameliorates a poor chine placement as it reduces the turbulence of cross chine flow.
  8. Dudley Dix
    Joined: Sep 2005
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    Dudley Dix Designer

    I have built all of my boats upside down as personal preference but my metal designs are all detailed without prescribing whether they are built right way up or upside down. That does not make me inflexible on the subject. It matters only that the builder produce a good boat by whatever method he chooses.

    Professional builders with whom I have worked and who have built both right way up and upside down have generally settled on upside down as being the best for them. It goes to prove that what is best for one is not necessarily best for everyone.
  9. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    I have found , most so called Pro builders, although earning living from boatbuilding, are, in fact steelshop fabricators turned boatbuilder
    I do not know of any who were and are only timeserved boatbuilders who build upsides down, and where do you stop, 50, 100 tonnes? The Germans and Dutch, masters never did upsides down, wonder why?
    well there are many reasons, but I know that from long exp will never change a mindset in here
    Will say that with ceramic backing and the modern mig that building upsides down has taken away the only one plus, and that was that was easier to grind off the outside of the shell plate
    happy new year, Mike
    nice post
  10. Dudley Dix
    Joined: Sep 2005
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    Dudley Dix Designer

    Mike, I agree with pretty much all that you say. Yes, computers allow us to do a whole lot more and to do so in less time. As I said in my earlier post, the calculations go more quickly and they allow us to do more. However, for someone who does not know what they are doing they can design a bad boat more quickly than they will by hand. CAD will not stop it from being a bad boat.

    My point about my designs taking longer by CAD than by hand refers to the drafting aspect. I take longer to fully detail a design with CAD than drawing by hand. Nevertheless, I have not hand-drawn a boat for about 20 years, the benefits of CAD outweigh the negatives.

    I do disagree in part with what you say about radius chine shapes though. A radius chine with a small radius will comply with what you say about ameliorating flow over a badly shaped chine but a chine with a large radius is much closer to a full round bilge shape and flow will be closer to a round bilge than a chine hull. It remains a compromise solution but it does simplify construction somewhat.
  11. Dudley Dix
    Joined: Sep 2005
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    Dudley Dix Designer

    Boatbuilders are normally working with way less than 50-100 tonnes.

    I attended a lecture given by Dutch designers at IBEX 2007 about quality Dutch boatbuilding. I asked why it is that Dutch builders prefer transverse framed when stringered over wider spaced frames is easier. The answer was that they had encountered strong resistance to stringered construction from Dutch builders. The builders have always used transverse framing and do not want to change.

    This may be the same reason behind them continuing to build right way up. Difficulty of access for cranes to small family boatyards may also contribute. Whatever the reason, I believe that each builder should be able to build by the method that is more applicable to his situation.

    Here in USA and in South Africa, crane hire is not a major input cost. Possibly it is different in Europe.
  12. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    I beg yours, I am actually a boatbuilder turned steel fabricator :confused:. In my country there is not a lot of work to make a living from building steel boats only...

    I have built both ways in the past and in my humble opinion it is only a fool that would want to build a boat the right way up given the choice. Let me explain.

    1. All work is done at a comfortable height- a hull upside down is not all that tall due to the keel the wrong way up.
    2. All plates are handled, marked, cut and fitted in a downhand position, and also much safer that way eliminating possible injuries working with heavy plates above your head. Try to fit a plate above your head the "right way" up...
    3. Use less people to handle the plating in a down hand position.
    4. Most welding done in a downhand position and with the upright method most welds are done vertical and overhead which tends to be slower welds and as a result some distortion guaranteed, moreso on thinner plate hulls. Also easier to do more controlled quality welds downhand.
    5. Most grinding and finishing also done downhand and at a comfortable height.

    All in all Whoosh, you can easily save about 30% in time spent building upside down and still have some skin left on your knuckles. This time saved easily offsets the cost of a crane handsomely....
    Better still, ask Dudley Dix how long it took me to built his 65ft from loft to a welded and grind hull ready for turning over - I do not want to blow my own whistle...and I dare any steel builder to produce a similar fair hull of that boat in the same time building the right way up - regardless of working crew. I had used a boilermaker, welder and two helpers only.

    My personal view on this is that they are stuck in a comfort zone. The problem with this is that you tend to be stagnated and stays in that comfort zone. All I can add to believers of the old ways; be brave, get out of the box and see how wide the horizon really is :idea:
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2009
  13. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Tad Boat Designer

    Well....lot's to cover here....a question about design choice leads into an argument about building right side up or upside's all good fun.

    On design criticism....I believe it is up to designers to criticize each others work, we are the experts and if we don't do it who will? How will potential owner's become educated in the nuance of design features unless the choices are pointed out by experts. I tell everyone making a decision on whether to build a particular design...ask the designer's peers if they approve....

    Take the mythological 65' metal yacht that is the subject of this thread. Built of steel to a certain finish level every design will take roughly the same amount of material and labour. The labour difference in hull form (say chine vs round) is a drop in the bucket of man hours involved in completing a yacht. The advantage of the various "quick build" methods (kits, etc) is that it gives amatures something that looks like a boat quickly. Then they realize that all the finish, systems, interior, etc, takes most of the build time and can't be short-cut.

    So a given level the investment (man hours and material) is the same. You can build a Bruce Roberts design or a Bruce Farr design....this choice will establish the performance of your boat, and also the value of your investment (labour and money) forever! Of course there are other factors involved. Have Royal Huisman build the boat and you establish a value level, have Joe the welder down the street build her and you establish another value level. But it still comes back to who did the design. If Huisman built the Bruce Roberts design (which they will not do) it would have a lower value than a Huisman boat designed by Sparkman & Stephens.

    I find it silly to state that traditional types (with tanbark sails) are somehow worthless and will perform poorly...bull!

    I'm not sure which Dutch yards are building right side up? Huisman, Vitters, and Bloemsma Van Breemen are all building upside down. Generally on fairly closely spaced transverse frames. Years ago I tried to get Huisman to change, mainly to get more usable interior volume, but met a brick wall.

    A couple of further small advantages when building upside down in metal. When doing your final seaming inside you are working in the dark and every little pinhole shows up as a spot of daylight. Thus it's easy to know where you are and what's been done. Also if you sand blast the inside while she's upside down, all the crap falls out on the ground, simple cleanup for paint.
  14. jim2021
    Joined: Dec 2007
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    jim2021 New Member

    boat design

    if you donot want to pay the fee you can learn boat design. all you have to do is to buy the book 'yacht designing and planning' by howard i. chapelle. you can learn to design in one week. even if you buy the plans you still have to do the lofting of full size which is essentially you are redisigning the boat in full scale. i learned myself to design and to prove to myself that it was a boat, i made a model of 4 foot and to my amazment it came out a beutiful boat,and to prove it will float i put it in the water and it was floating in a level line. i also designed and built an aluminum outboard boat 3 meters.i m not advertizing my self, i just want to show you that is doable if you want to go this you will be in controll of every step of the proccess and you depend to no other person.
    just a thought

  15. Guest62110524

    Guest62110524 Previous Member

    the tan sails bit, well maybe should have clarified, but instead of saying SILLY you should have realised was a generalisationj abt clunkers, the steel boat in pic is a wonderful schooner, with modern underbody and the paras where a draft
    i have found that the most successful designers are the most approachable, like Frers and Dubois were more than happy to let me draw the structure, , but still I could not afford
    i have found a lot of designers inflexible and far too sensitive, quite unable to take constructive input into a designs and methods
    Of course in saying that the designer will not let joe welder play with his design, but you can bet myself, for one, bos carr and bigger guys like huisman, and alloy yachts say, draw the boat with frames only, or in case of alloy yachts stringers
    I have also found that people do not talk much away from the forum board, not bothering to KNOW or understand another, its a pity, thats why I encourage dialogue through yahoo messenger or msn, or phone, I have made some staunch friends this way, one of whom I have co designed with using yahoo messenger as our base
    as for the crane
    you can turn over a ten tonne hull with 2 heavy chain blocks, one hook is taken to the top of the building, the other starts at the sheer, a wire is wrapped around the hull and the bottom hook raised while top is lowered, cost zilch
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