Non fossil fuel propulsion

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by rob denney, Sep 10, 2011.

  1. upchurchmr
    Joined: Feb 2011
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    What is the cost of your solar panels?
    What is the cost of your storage method?
    Do you need a "charging station" for the specific car you need, in order to charge at home?
    If so what is the cost and will it even hook up to the battery pack you plan on using at home?
    What are you going to do when it is cloudy for a week?

    Never mind. I should not have let myself be attracted away from "non fossil fuel propulsion" for ships.
     
  2. Rastapop
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    Rastapop Naval Architect

    They're all initial costs. Charging will cost nothing.

    I can't remember the last time it was cloudy for a week here, but storing excess energy will ensure availability when supply is low.
     
  3. Grey Ghost
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    Grey Ghost Senior Member

    The solar panels and batteries won't last indefinitely.
     
  4. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    No unfortunately, the batteries have a limited life, which decreases every charge ( charge is required at about 1/3rd of capacity too, to avoid damage) . And the batteries reduce in efficiency every year.

    The other thing is that the current hybrids rely a lot on their petrol engine. Batteries provide brake regeneration, and extra power in some situations, but they really aren't up to real road conditions.

    The illusion is one of 'running on sunlight' - the reality is 'saving some money by brake regeneration and solar re-charging'

    eg
    http://www.hybridcars.com/is-the-toyota-prius-liftback-worth-it/

    "It would take 6.1 years just to break even. Similar comparisons to other cars could be made, and a longer or shorter multi-year payback time could be found. "
     
  5. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Initial costs have to be amortized over the life of the car.
    Believing anything else will lead you into foolish choices - financially.

    "solar panels and batteries won't last indefinitely" - I forgot those.

    Have fun - I really don't think you will ever report back the actual costs since that would mean admitting the whole thing is not anything like free.

    But if you want to say that charging is free and ignore all the initial and upkeep costs, be my guest.
    lots of eco-vultures will enjoy taking your money

    Actually this started because I would like an unbiased and factual report - so far I don't think those exist. It wasn't because I wanted to give you c**p.
     
  6. Rastapop
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    Rastapop Naval Architect

    Of course not. But the amount of energy I get from them over their life would have cost considerably more if I'd bought the energy as petrol instead.

    I have no interest in hybrids. I'm talking about electric cars. Tesla's model S for example.
    http://arstechnica.com/features/2013/10/review-tesla-model-s/

    [​IMG]

    What's the biggest cost related to your car? Mine is fuel.
    Even with the extra infrastructure needed up front, over the life of the car I'll end up with more money left in my pocket.
     
  7. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    What's the biggest cost related to your car? Mine is fuel.

    In NYC parking can run $400 to $800 a month .
     
  8. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Lets see.
    Toyota Tundra V-8 pickup. 15 mpg. 10K miles per year. Assume $3.50 / gallon.

    Initial purchase $22K.

    Gas = 10K/ 15 = 666 galons/ year is 666 x $3.50 = $2331/ year
    12 years old now. $2331 x 12 = $27,972 total
    Total cost for 12 years = $27972 = $22,000 = $49,972 or $4164/ year minus taxes, tires, oil, liscensing, insurance.

    Hypothetical electric car.

    Purchase $30K (not assuming a Tesla)

    Solar cells - $10K? ( I really don't know and don't know if you will use them for other reasons like home use)
    Batteries for storage - $5K (again I don't know)
    Charging station - $5K (the last one I saw was for 120v AC input @$7K but I assume they are comming down).

    Total $30 +$10 +$5 + $5 = $50K or $4166 / year for 12 years. not including taxes, licensing, tires, maintenence, insurance, storage batteries replacement (home), car batteries replacement, solar panel replacement (maintenence), and charging station maintenence or replacement.

    I agree that i don't have accurate electric car costs along with the associated maintenence, but it looks like a cheap electric car is about a break even without estimating any other costs.

    New technology generally has issues in the early years, looks like a significant risk to your pocketbook.

    And then what happens when you want to drive 500 miles?

    Feel free to correct my numbers.
     
  9. boatindad
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    boatindad Junior Member

    If purchased now increased fuel price over 12 years could make a difference. Gas (petrol) has gone up 14ish % per year i have been driving 12 years
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2014
  10. Rastapop
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    Rastapop Naval Architect

    Even if it only broke even you'd have to agree it'd be financially viable.

    Here in Australia petrol is about $1.50 per litre, or between $5.50 - $6 per gallon for Americans, so even in your scenario I'm already way ahead. And in the next 12 years it'll only get higher.

    Range is an undeniable weakness of electric cars with current batteries. The daily commute is fine, but driving around the country is not - I won't pretend otherwise.
    The point is though that it isn't just financially viable, it's financially advantageous.
     
  11. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Fly on the Wall - Miss ddt yet?

    How, in any real world scenario, can something be financially advantageous if it is not first financially viable?
     
  12. Rastapop
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    Rastapop Naval Architect

    Feel free to point out what isn't financially viable...

    EDIT: Ah, I see, you misunderstood my post (despite the fact that it's written in plain, and correct, English).

    An electric car is not only viable, it's also advantageous.
    It's both viable and advantageous.
     
  13. Skyak
    Joined: Jul 2012
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    Skyak Senior Member

    The big inaccuracies to the scenario above

    -v8 pickup is not comparable to any available electric cars, fuel consumption is over twice and close to three times the equivalent of the electric auto. There are plenty of 45mpg cars equivalent to electric vehicles for $22k. $30k does not buy you much of an electric car, more like $35k with the government kicking in about $8k or so. There is also the small mater of the taxes included in the price of gas (~30%) but not in electricity.

    The $5k charger is to quick-charge. If you have 220v in your garage you should not have trouble charging overnight. $5k for home battery storage is unrealistic, inadequate, and unnecessary. The in and out of the home battery cuts the efficiency so much it blows the whole plan. Again, government subsidy to the rescue, your solar feeds the grid in the daytime, the grid charges your car with fossil fuel overnight.

    I don't know the current state of the art but the average home can only fit about $50k of solar cells and that would not be enough to do all the charging an electric auto would need. This is a government subsidized price also ~30%

    The last big difference is finance, $22k up front plus $1k/year for 10 is far less than the equivalent on day 1.

    The bottom line is compared to an efficient equivalent gas car the electric and solar will cost you more than twice as much with the government paying about a third to boot.

    My plan? Buy an efficient natural gas/gasoline flex fuel car. (note to the international crowd -US nat gas price is around $4.75 MBTU or about 25% of the international average) The price of electricity is based on natural gas anyway and the loss from transmission and batteries is about 50%. A natural gas car produces LESS carbon dioxide than an electric one charged from the grid. If you are in a good location BUY THE SOLAR for your roof, collect the subsidy, lock in today's low interest rates. The kicker is that in some locations solar cuts peak utility loads and might allow the power company to retire a coal fired plant! This plan has the fastest and largest cut in CO2 and by far the fastest payback and longest life! With the money you save you can upgrade your home lighting and appliances to push your carbon footprint ever further negative, and collect more money from the utility.
     
  14. Rastapop
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    Rastapop Naval Architect

    This is not even close to correct.

    Way, WAY off.

    Have a look here for a quick example: http://1bog.org/blog/charging-an-electric-car-at-home-how-many-more-solar-panels-do-i-need/

    A Nissan Leaf (if that runs to your taste) driving 20 miles per day somewhere with 5 hours of sunlight per day requires just 0.64 kW of panels.
     

  15. Skyak
    Joined: Jul 2012
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    Skyak Senior Member


    I will be glad to be wrong but the link you provided is very low quality. Leaf is good for comparison. 20 miles/day doesn't cut it, you need at least 40 average and likely more than the 80 the car is designed for. 5 hours per day at 100% is more than optimistic in all but the best locations with installation at the perfect angle. With all these omissions/inaccuracies I tend to think that link is BS. In the comments below there is a guy that says his 6.5KW installation powers his tesla 72miles/full day of sun -better car, real installation in San Diego, full documentation. I believe him and think your link is FOS. I would estimate that my home near Chicago is closer to average sun and would need at least twice the panels for equivalent output. I have a big roof but not enough of it faces south. I hope I was wrong about cost.

    http://www.wildershares.com/pdf/Solar Power for a better Solution.pdf
     
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